J. Mason Brewer lecture, "Folktales and Slave Narratives," at the University of Iowa, June 9, 1974

Speaker 1: The following was recorded June 9th, 1974, as part of the Sixth Annual Institute on Afro-American Culture held at the University of Iowa. Speaking on Folk Tales and Slave Narratives is J. Mason Brewer, a visiting Professor and member of the Graduate Faculty at East Texas State University. Introducing Professor Brewer is Darwin Turner, Chairman of the Afro American Studies Department at the University of Iowa. Darwin Turner: I consider myself very fortunate this evening to be able to introduce our guest lecturer, Dr. J. Mason Brewer. We are all accustomed to reading about sports celebrities before they die, about movie stars in biographies before they die, and even about writers. But the humble college professor rarely has a biography written during his lifetime, if indeed it is ever written about him. Our speaker, therefore, is a truly distinguished individual. One who is an author and editor. He's often been identified as the most distinguished Black folklorist in America. And if one takes away the racial labeling, he is identified as one of the major folklorists of America. An individual who has collected more folk tales about Blacks than anyone else in the history of mankind, so the publicity goes, living or dead. An individual who has collected these materials into seven volumes, in which there are at least some 366 separate and distinct folktales. Darwin Turner: Dr. Brewer was born in Goliad, Texas, reared in Austin. He's collected folktales in Texas, North Carolina, Mexico. He has taught in Texas, in North Carolina, and now he is back at Texas as Distinguished Visiting Professor of English at East Texas State University, and a full member of the Graduate Faculty. He served on the research committee of the American Folklore Society, on the Council of that society. He's been the second Vice President, a member of the Texas Institute of Letters, and Board of Directors of the National Folk Festival Association. Darwin Turner: Probably his best known collection of folklore today is the most recent, the largest, American Negro Folklore. But you might be interested in the recognition given to a couple of the earlier collections. The Word About the Brazos was called the best book of Negro stories in a generation, that from the New York Times. A second volume, Worser Days & Better Times has been identified as the most valuable collection of North Carolina folklore in the 20th century. The most valuable collection since Charles Chestnutt, who stopped writing folklore about North Carolina around 1900. Darwin Turner: He's lectured and taught at many colleges. He's received a grant to complete a study that he's now working on, a book that will be called Black World Folklore. It is my very great pleasure to introduce to you Dr. J. Mason Brewer, who at my request is not going to begin with a pedantic scholarly presentation that people are too accustomed to hearing as the opening presentation. We just left a banquet, it's been a dreary day. It's been a dreary month, and we invited an enlightened and lively spirit to lead us off with a little light presentation about Black people. The title of his presentation will be The Black Man's American Experience as Reflected in his Folklore. Dr. Brewer. J. Mason Brewer: Dr. Turner, all teachers and members of the AA Institute crew, may I agree to this fine Sunday evening, and ask you, how do you do? It's a pleasure to be here this evening and have a word to say on a subject I'm obsessed with both every night and day. The subject, of course, is Black culture, which somehow has appealed to me since I was still quite a youngster, age-wise about 23. But let me move on now, my worthies, and waste no more precious time, because of the brief rendition of a prefatory rhyme. And I sure do hope that nothing this evening won't go amiss, because I sure do get a heck of a kick out of doing things like this. So sit back relaxed-like, dear listeners. And let the joy bells ring in your receptive minds, as I attempt to do my thing. My subject, as has been announced, is the Black man's American experience as reflected in his folklore. J. Mason Brewer: It has always been true that ways of thinking, and ways of acting, by any ethnic group are reflected in the folklore of the particular ethnic group involved. We can take the ancient Greeks and the folk epics: The Iliad and The Odyssey. Which revealed the fact that the Greeks thought themselves almost equal of their gods. And then we can take the book of the dead, and Egyptian folk literature, which revealed the fact that the Egyptians believed that the soul hung around the body after death, in order to get further instructions how to enter the afterworld. J. Mason Brewer: And then we can take the Mahabharata, the great folk epic of the old British Indians, which reveals the fact that they believed that life was just an illusion, just a dream. And in it has been said, as far as America is concerned, that the Indian fought and bled and died. And the Black man laughed, and sang, and multiplied. J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has endowed him with enough wisdom to succeed and survive in a society controlled and conditioned by a majority group. And this is revealed as far back as the slavery period. It is said that on one occasion there was an elderly slave whose job it was to count the hogs in the pen. And there were eight of them, but he didn't know how to count. And so, his master became disgusted with him. And one evening when he came down to the hog pen, he said, "Jeremiah, you're going to learn how to count these hogs or I'm going to beat you within an inch of your life when tomorrow comes." So he said, "Yes sir. Yes sir." J. Mason Brewer: Well, when he left, it happened that the master's little grandson had overheard what was said. So he went down, having sympathy for the elderly slave, and tried to teach him how to count the eight hogs. But when the next afternoon came, the master came down again and said, "Do you know how to count the hogs yet? J. Mason Brewer: And he said, "No, sir," he said, "I don't know how to count them yet." He said, "Well, I'm giving you only one more chance. And if you don't know how to count these hogs by tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to whip you within an inch of your life." And so, the old man said, "Yes sir. Yes sir." Well again, the master's little grandson overheard his grandfather talking to the old man about counting the hogs. And he went down and tried to teach him how to count the eight hogs. And so, the next evening when the master came around, he said, "Do you know how to count the hogs now?" He say, "Yes sir." He said, "This one and that one. And that one and this one. The 'ol black sow, two more and another." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has always endowed him with enough wisdom to succeed and survive in a society controlled and conditioned by a majority group. Then we can take South Carolina, for example, and the fiction around Aiken, where they used to have a lot of watermelon peddlers. And so, one time a watermelon peddler came into town, and he said, "I'll give $20 for anybody who can eat this 20 pound watermelon." And so, there's one Black man who said, "I'll take you up on it, but can I go home first?" And he said, "Sure, you can go home first." J. Mason Brewer: So the man went home. And he came back. And he said, "Hand it to me." And so, he ate it. And then the peddler said, "Now I'm going to give you the money," he said, "but I want to ask you one question before I give it to you. Why did you have to go home before you ate the melon?" He said, "Well sir, I'm going to tell you the truth." He said, "I had one at home that is bigger than this one. And if I ate that then I know I could eat this one." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has always endowed him with enough wisdom to succeed and survive in a society controlled and conditioned by a majority group. During the reconstruction period, there was a folk hero by the name of John who was very clever. He always could outwit any white person that he came in contact with. But one Sunday, on the plantation which bordered the Mississippi river, John was arrested with two white men. All of them for stealing. And John had never been arrested with whites before, so it puzzled him. And he said, "Now I wonder what I'm going to do. I can get out of these things when I'm by myself. But here I am, I've been arrested with two white men. And what can I do?" J. Mason Brewer: But the thought finally came to him that they were going to try the white men first, before they tried him. So he said, "Oh, I got it." He said, "I'm going to answer just like they do." So the day he came for the trial, and the first white man was called to the stand, he was accused of stealing a horse. And the judge said, "Guilty or not guilty?" And he said, "Not guilty. I was on that horse ever since it was a colt." Case dismissed. Then the next white man was called. And he was accused of stealing a cow. So the judge said, "Guilty or not guilty?" He said, "Not guilty. I was on that cow since I was a kid." And John was accused of stealing a wagon. So the judge said, "Guilty or not guilty?" And he said, "Not guilty. I was on that wagon ever since it was a wheelbarrow." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has endowed him with enough wisdom to succeed and survive in a society controlled and conditioned by a majority group. Just recently, near East Texas State University, there was a Black man who drove into one of the little towns, Greenville. And he ran a red light. And so, one of the officers stopped him, and said, "Did you know you ran a red light? I'm going to have to give you a ticket." He said, "Yes. I knew I ran the red light." He said, "You mean to tell me that you admit taking a chance on injuring yourself and injuring other people, by going through that red light?" He said, "Yes sir." He said, "Well, how come you to do it?" He said, "Well, I seen all the white folks going on the green light, and I thought the red light was for Black folk." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience had developed in him his spirit of loyalty to his country. We don't hear of any Black deserters, any Black traders. And I was on a collecting jaunt passing through Shreveport Louisiana during World War II. And I had to board an early morning train. And when I boarded it, there was some Black government workers who boarded the train with me. And after a while, they began to sing a song in the tune of the traditional blues, expressing loyalty to the government: J. Mason Brewer: "Well, if the government gives you work boy, be sure and do your work good. Oh, if the government gives you work boy, be sure and do your work good, because your government's helping poor folks in every neighborhood. Oh, New York Sam's flag is painted red, white and blue. New York Sam's flag is painted red, white, and blue. If Uncle Sam ever failed us, what in the world we going do? Oh, the war would soon be over, if Uncle Sam would use my plan. Oh yes, the war would soon be over, if Uncle Sam would use my plan. Just put me in Hitler's bedroom with a razor in my hand." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has created in him enough courage and strength to protest against discrimination and injustice. And this too goes back to the slavery period. The slaves, when they got ready to pray, used to go down in the woods and pick out a tree to pray underneath. They called it the prayer tree. And then when they got too old to go down in the woods, they would bring us some tree limbs in the house, and still get down on their knees and pray, and ask the Lord to come for them and take them out of this sinful world. Well, there was one elderly slave who was named Uncle Lucas. And Uncle Lucas got down on his knees one night, and said, "Oh Lord, please come get me out of this sinful world." J. Mason Brewer: Well, the master's son this time, instead of the grandson, overheard him. And he went and told his father and told him about what time Uncle Lucas prayed. So the next evening, the master put on a white sheet and came down and got in front of Uncle Lucas's door. And soon Uncle Lucas started praying, "Oh Lord, come get me out this sinful world." And he rapped on the door. And Uncle Lucas say, "Who that knocking here on my door now?" So the master said, "This is the Lord. I've come to get you out of this sinful... You better get on with me." And, "Now Lord, I was just joking. I ain't ready to go nowhere." J. Mason Brewer: But the next night the master came down about the same time. And when Uncle Lucas got down on his knees and said, "Oh Lord, please come get him out of this sinful world." He rapped on the door again. And Uncle Lucas said, "Now who's that knocking on my door that second time here now." So he said, "This is the Lord. I've come for you still, to take you out of this sinful world." "Now Lord I done told you. How many times I got to tell you, I ain't ready to go yet." J. Mason Brewer: Well, the third night the master came back again, wrapped in a sheet. And when Uncle Lucas got down to pray, "Oh Lord, come get me out of this sinful world." He rapped on the door again. He said, "Now this is getting to be outrageous. Somebody done knocking on my door this third time, y'all. And I done told you that I wasn't ready to go yet." So the master said, "Well, you said you wanted to go. So, I just thought I'd come and take you if you ready." He said, "Now you better get on away from here. I done told you three times now to quit rapping on my door. I see now why the Jews killed you, you're so damn hard headed." J. Mason Brewer: During the reconstruction period, there were quite a few Black senators and representatives in Southern legislatures. And South Carolina was one of the states where this condition existed. Well, there was a prejudiced white Senator by the name of Ben Tillman, who was absent from the Senate one time. And there was a tall, dark Black Senator by the name of Thomas Moore. And so, somebody told Ben Tillman, when he came back to the Senate, that Thomas Moore had made some uncomplimentary remarks about him. J. Mason Brewer: So Ben Tillman walked up to him and said, "You big Black rascal, you. I heard that you were making some uncomplimentary remarks about me during my absence. And I just want to tell you if I ever hear of you making any more uncomplimentary remarks about me, I'm going to swallow you alive." And Thomas Morris stood up and pointed his finger back in Ben Tillman's face. And he said, "Yeah. And if you do you, you'd have more brains in your stomach then you got in your head." J. Mason Brewer: During the depression era, when young Blacks went North to try to earn a living, there was a Black boy off of a Mississippi plantation who decided he'd go to New York, try to make a living. So, he left and stayed 10 years before he decided to come back and see his mother and father. But one day he wrote and told his father to meet him at the church. This was the horse and buggy days. I mean the station, railroad station. And so his father met him. And when he got off, he started greeting his father. And he was well dressed and all. So his father say, "Son," he said, "Papa sure is proud of that pretty speech you got. And Papa sure is proud of them good looking duds you got on. But there's just one thing that Papa wants to ask you to do. Now this is still Alabama, and wherever we goes, I want you to let me speak for us. And then you speak like I speaks." J. Mason Brewer: So the boy said, "I don't think that there will be any difficulty in carrying out your instructions, because they are extremely lucid. So that's all right, father." So they go on out to the plantation, and he looks and sees that his mother doesn't have any food. So he says, "Father, let's go down to the general store and get mother some food, replenish our cupboard. And so he said, "All right, but now remember son, when we go down to the store, you let Papa speak for us. And then when we get through, then you speak like I speaks. So he said, "Father," he said, "I thought that I had already reiterated that I would comply with any suggestion that you happen to make. So let's go." J. Mason Brewer: So, they go on down to the general store. And his father walks in and pulls off his hat and say, "Mr. Charlie, give me five pounds of bacon, if you please. Mr. Charlie, give me five pounds of sugar, if you please. Mr. Charlie, give me five pounds of meal, if you please. Mr. Charlie, give me five pounds of fatback, if you please." And then his boy walks up and says, "Give my old man five plugs of Brown Mule chewing tobacco. And give me a carton of Camel cigarettes." So the old store keeper said, "Give you what?" He said, "You got them God damn it, that's what." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has created in him enough courage and strength to protest against discrimination and injustice. The Negro's American experience has engendered in him a desire for peace and brotherhood. I heard a very excellent sermon, and the minister's subject was: I am Joseph, your brother. And so, I went home and tried to write a little poem, because I was impressed with the fact that the Negro's American experience has generated in him a desire for peace and brotherhood. And this to me brought out that thought very clearly. Here's a little poem, I am Joseph, your brother: J. Mason Brewer: My skin is Black, I lives in a shack by the railroad track. And you calls me Sam, but that ain't who I am. I'm Joseph, your brother. I works downtown at the new compound. As well, I buckled down. And you calls me George, and lots of other hodgepodge. But I am Joseph, your brother. I pays my church dues, and I sings the blues. I eats collard greens, fatback, red beans and stews. And you calls me nigger, but that don't figure. Because I'm Joseph, your brother. My soul is tired, but heavenly fired, and God inspired. Yet you calls me Tom, and does me harm. But I'm still Joseph, your brother. J. Mason Brewer: ♪ (signing) Let us break bread together on our knees. Let us break bread together on our knees. When I fall on my knees, with my face to the rising sun. Oh Lord, have mercy, if you please. ♪♪ J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has invested him with enough emotional maturity to laugh at himself. There was an elderly deacon in Charleston, South Carolina, by the name of Uncle Moves Johnson. And when Uncle Moves died, and went up to heaven, he knocked upon the gates. So Saint Peter said, "Who is it knocking so loud out here at the heavenly gates." So he say, "This is me, Mos Johnson. The Head Deacon at the Mount Moriah Baptist Church in Charleston, South Carolina. And you come here asking me who this is. You better open them Gates. He said, "Well, Moves what did you ever do for the Lord?" J. Mason Brewer: "Now ain't that something, asking me, Mos Johnson, the Head Deacon of the Mount Moriah Baptist church in Charleston, South Carolina, what I done did for the Lord. I done did plenty for the Lord." So St. Peter turned to Saint Matthew. He said, "Go look there and see on the books, and see if Moves Johnson ever did anything for the Lord." So St. Matthew left and came back. So, he say, "Did you see there where Mos Johnson ever did anything for the Lord?" He said, "I see here where he did give a dime one time." So Saint Peter say, "A dime?" He said, "Let's give it back to him and let him go on to hell." J. Mason Brewer: During Lyndon Johnson's term as president, he was returning from his Texas presidential home in his helicopter. And when he crossed the Mississippi River, he saw something that attracted his attention very much. He saw two white men in motorboats. And each had a Black man on water skis, pulling them along. So he said, "Lower the helicopter. Lower the helicopter. I've got to talk to these men." He say, "Well, I'll declare. I've never seen anything like this." J. Mason Brewer: So he lowered the helicopter, and he said, "Gentlemen, I just want to tell you how proud I am of you, to see what you're doing here today. And I can't hardly wait until I get back to Washington to tell the Congress what I have witnessed here today." And so he left, told the helicopter driver, "Let's move off." But before they could get out of sight, one of the white fellows turned to the other, and he said, "Who did that guy say he was?" He say, "He said he was Lyndon Johnson, President of the United States of America." He said, "Well, he sure don't know much about alligator fishing, does he?" J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has provided him with sufficient knowledge to know an opportunity when he sees one, and how to take advantage of it. And this goes back to the slavery period, also. One time there was another elderly slave who had been told by his master if he could raise $20 he would give him his freedom. J. Mason Brewer: And so, he went down to his favorite prayer tree and said, "Oh Lord, please send me $20 to buy my freedom." Well, again, the master's son overheard him, told his father. And his father got up in the limbs of the tree that had been pointed out to him. The next day, before the slave could get on his knees, "Oh Lord, please send me $20 to buy my freedom." And so, he threw down a $5 bill. And he said, "Here's $5 on your freedom. Now you come back tomorrow night and I'll give you some more money on your freedom." "Sure, thank you Lord. Sure, thank you." J. Mason Brewer: So, the next night the master came down, and got up in the branches of the tree again. And when the elderly slave started to praying, "Oh Lord, send me $15 more to buy my freedom." He threw down a $10 bill. He said, "Now here's $10 more on your freedom." "Sure, thank you, Lord. Sure, thank you." He said, "But I tell you what I want you to do. Now you take the $5 I gave you last night, and you take the $10 I dropped just a few moments ago, and you leave them under the tree. And tomorrow night, when you come back, I'll give you the $20." So the old slave looked up in the branches of the tree, and he said, "Oh, that's all right Lord." He said, "Well, I sure thank you for the $15, but I'll get the other $5 someplace else." J. Mason Brewer: Just before I left North Carolina, there was a white liberal who lived in Greensboro who started out one morning to Raleigh. And as he neared the suburbs of Greensboro, he saw a Black laborer with a soiled shirt, and some patched overalls, and some shoes with no soles on them, and a raggedy hat, and his lunch in a little paper bag. And so, he stopped his car and said, "Sir, do you happen to be going to Raleigh?" And the Black laborers said, "Yes sir." He said, "Well, get in. I'm going to Raleigh. I'll take you." So, the Black laborer started to get in the backseat, and the white liberal said, "Oh no. Oh no. You come up here and get in the front seat with me. You as good as I am." J. Mason Brewer: So, the Black laborer got in the front seat. About 15 miles further the white liberal drove over into a clump of trees, took out his thermos bottle, and took a drink. And he turned to the Black labor and said, "Wouldn't you like to have a drink?" So he said, "Yes sir. But we have to wait until we get to the next little town so I can get me a paper cup." He said, "Oh no. Oh no. You pick up that thermos bottle and drink. You as good as I am." So, the Black laborer took up the thermos bottle and drank. J. Mason Brewer: And then they drove on about 15 miles further and had a blow out. And the Black laborer sat up and looked at the white liberal. And the white liberal sat and looked at the Black laborer for about an hour. And finally, the Black laborer broke the silence. And he said, "You know one thing sir." He say, "Ain't if awful. Here we is way out here with a blowed out tire, and there ain't a Black man nowhere to fix it." J. Mason Brewer: The Negro's American experience has nurtured in him a love for gossip. It is said that two Blacks will draw four Blacks. And four Blacks will draw eight Blacks. And eight Blacks will draw sixteen Blacks. So, in conclusion I'm going to read you a folk poem about an elderly woman who claimed that she didn't gossip. But when I get through, I want you to tell me whether you think she gossips or not. And I want to take this opportunity for thanking Dr. Turner, and others who were associated with him, for giving me this wonderful opportunity to be with you this evening. It brings me great pleasure. But now, let's get on with this woman who says she was not a gossip. J. Mason Brewer: Good morning Sister [Ennisson], how you come on today? You ain't complaining? Well, that's good. I wish I felt that way. But I ain't much, honey. I was all stove up, it's mostly in my knee. And I was mighty afraid that rheumatism's coming back on me. You wasn't out to the meeting Sunday, you say you couldn't go. Well, that's too bad. But then I allow you didn't miss much though. I was thinking what a shame it is, the way to church folks do. You know there ain't many good old Christians in the world like me and you. J. Mason Brewer: The church just full of hypocrites, just pretending like they's good. And they ain't got no more religion than what's in this piece of wood. The preacher he's so [inaudible] that I don't like him much. But that's the kind of man the high-toned wants in our church. You know, there's mighty little religion going around now which was why seems like all the good 'ol Christians done laid down their grace with style. And you can search the congregation from the pulpit to the back, and you won't find enough pure religion for to stop the smallest crack. There's a heap of so called Christians, would they'd live a life of shame. Why there's sinners and there's church folks [inaudible] might, and I the same. J. Mason Brewer: Now that's Deacon Greene got a voice like tomcats on the fence. And you wished that he could quit singing from the minute he commenced. He come to church with all his heirs, just most not dressed to death. And he only keep his mouth shut account of liquor on his breath. And when he calls on him to pray he makes his prayer so long, to keep from dropping off to sleep I was obliged to hum a song. J. Mason Brewer: Now they got 'ol Annie Johnson up there singing in the choir. Now she can't sing and knows she can't, then what's her desire for being up there duressed? The reason plain to me. She wear her fine clothes and there she sits, so all the folks can see. Trying to pretend like she's so young, why that woman's old as sin. I speak when I was a baby, she's taking company then. J. Mason Brewer: And there's old Missilda's daughter, just last month she joined the church. And last week she give a breakdown bold, you ever hear of such? I knows that it's her business, but back then, in our day, our Ma and Pa, they killed had we carried on that way. It's a shame before the Master, how folks let the youngins do. You know there ain't many mothers raising up the crops like me and you. J. Mason Brewer: Aunt Mary was out last Sunday. Now that 'ol soul ain't right, wearing all that store bought glory on her head, ain't she a sight? She had it poofed all out and twisted right. And styled too, bless your soul. Fixed up like a gal at 16, it's a shame because she too old. There ain't no sense for folks for to tell you, you do with style to rage and rave. One foot and the other on the ready, for the slip right in the grave. J. Mason Brewer: And you ought to have seen old grandpa Elly. My, that old man sure is spry, ain't it awful? Why that old soul [inaudible] too old to die. Talking about he'd want to marry as soon he can find a wife. How these old folks clutch such cables I can't see to save my life. Of course he's grown, and he got a right to do just as he please. It ain't my business, but he ought to spend more time upon his knees. You know, folks so busy watching other folks, they ain't got time to pray. Or, going around house to house, gossiping all day. J. Mason Brewer: I don't talk about nobody, sister. I ain't got the time. I keeps the cross right on my shoulder, and I accuse right to the line. I don't cast my lot with the sinners and I lives above all sin. Of course, I takes a little toddy for my health sake now and then. I just don't believe in talking about the way that people do. And this little discussion, what we had is just between me and you. But child, the church folks just ain't right. Most of them done lose the grace, and there's a mighty heap of them that ain't go on and the Master's face. But I knows that I's a Christian, because my life is free from sin. But I sure is sick this morning, has you got a little gin? J. Mason Brewer: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.