Herbert Aptheker lecture, "DuBois and His Approach to Social Transformation," at the University of Iowa, June 28, 1972

Speaker 1: The following is an address recorded at the fourth annual Institute for Afro-American culture held at the University of Iowa, June 25th through July 7th, 1972. Speaking on Du Bois and his approach to social transformation, is Herbert Aptheker, director of the American Institute for Marxists Studies in New York City. Herbert Aptheke...: You may remember in the talk we were privileged to hear from Mr. Redding, that he remarked that Dr. Du Bois labored mightily to change the world into which he had come and that he devoted all his years to this great effort. Du Bois is one of those who sole lived as to make a difference. Not many do, but he lived in such a way that having lived the world was made different. So that one may say that social transformation bringing about a change in the society, into which one comes, which one finds wrong or evil or oppressive and tries to change it is not child's play and was the essential commitment and burden and effort and meaning of his life, in everything that he did. Herbert Aptheke...: Therefore, we now turn to this in an effort to understand how he saw it at different times. And he saw the way to social transformation and the goals of such transformation differently, of course, in his 95 years. What I will try to do now is of course not to convey me. This is not an institute in me, it is an institute in Du Bois, and to convey his thoughts, his feelings, to the best of my knowledge as the central changes. There are, in my opinion, 10 basic readings for this from him, which I would like to offer you and we'll do it slowly. When we are finished, if you have missed something and you want to see this, you come see me and I will show you. Herbert Aptheke...: There is a first his essay called The Talented Tenth, which appeared in a book that has no editor and is a very important one and is one of the few important books in this area and never reproduced. It has not been reprinted. I do not know why. I have tried to get it done and not succeeded. Book is called The Negro Problem. Herbert Aptheke...: Yes. Audience Member: It's just been reprinted. Herbert Aptheke...: Oh good. By whom? Do you know? Audience Member: [crosstalk] I haven't the... Herbert Aptheke...: All right, then I'm corrected. And I appreciate the correction. And it has recently been, the book, has been recently reprinted, which is good. It'll be more available. It isn't in many libraries, it's called The Negro Problem. It was published in 1903 and in it is this essay, The Talented Tenth. Herbert Aptheke...: Second, is his collection of essays, some of them autobiographical Darkwater of 1920, which of course is available in paper. Herbert Aptheke...: Third is an essay which was called Social Planning for the Negro, Past and Present. Social Planning for the Negro, Past and Present. It appeared in The Journal of Negro Education, January, 1936 volume five, pages 110 to 25. Herbert Aptheke...: Fourth is another article that appeared in The Journal of Negro Education. It was called The Position of the Negro in the American Social Order: Where Do We Go From Here? The Position of the Negro in the American Social Order: Where Do We Go From Here? Journal of Negro Education, July, 1939, volume eight, 351 to 70. Herbert Aptheke...: Five, his autobiography, Dusk of Dawn, 1940. Herbert Aptheke...: Six, the essay he wrote for the book, a very important book, that Professor Logan who will, as I understand it, be here. Professor Logan edited the boys called his essay My Evolving Program. My Evolving Program. It appears in Rayford W. Logan editor, What the Negro Wants, first published in 1944 by University of North Carolina Press. Herbert Aptheke...: Seven, an essay which was entitled From McKinley to Wallace, meaning the Henry Wallace. From McKinley to Wallace: My Fifty Years as a Political Independent, which appeared in the magazine, which I was an editor, Masses & Mainstream, August, 1948. Masses & Mainstream. Many university libraries and so on are not so courageous as to have this magazine, but others will have it on file. This was August, 1948, volume one pages three to 13. Herbert Aptheke...: Eight, an essay he called The Negro and Socialism. You will, of course observe the chronological order of my bibliography. An essay he called The Negro and Socialism, which appeared in a book edited by a remarkable woman. So remarkable that nobody in this room will know her name, being a comment of course, on American historiography. And the way it is taught this woman was Helen Alfred. Helen Alfred was the mother, I was going to say, father, in my male manner. She was the mother of public housing. She is more important than any other single person in the phenomenon of public housing and was the director of public housing at LaGuardia administration and died about 10 years ago. She edited this book, which also no one in this room will know except me. And therefore is a remarkable book called Toward a Socialist America, in 1958, in the terrible fifties. Others were doing this. Helen Alfred edited Toward a Socialist America, 1958. His essay that is called the Negro in Socialism. Very careful essay, rather long essay. Herbert Aptheke...: Nine, his speech when he was a mere 92 years old, which is called Whither Now and Why. Whither Now and Why, which appeared in the Quarterly Review of Higher Education Among Negroes, published of course at Wilberforce. The Quarterly Review of Higher Education Among Negroes at Wilberforce, July, 1960. And by the way, concerning the insidious rumors of the senility, which infected the doctor. If you want to see proof of senility, you will please read this essay written and delivered by the 92 year old Dr. Du Bois. And if when you are 30, you are as senile as that, you will be doing very well. That's in volume 28 of that journal. Herbert Aptheke...: And finally his autobiography, especially the last sections of his autobiography, which is a re-drafting of a Credo, 1968, and available on paper. I believe within the limits of a bibliography under these circumstances, this will lead you into his depictions and analysis of his views through his lifetime, 1903 to 1960 of social transformation. Herbert Aptheke...: I will now offer you my opinions, my summary, my analysis of this development. I believe there were four fundamental phases in the development of Dr. Du Bois' thought as concerns the question of social transformation in the United States. Herbert Aptheke...: One, from about 1885 to about 1905. The dates are of course rough, and there is transition and so on, obviously. In this period with the doctor, it was not yet so much a question of transformation as a commitment towards the assembling of information and the spreading of that information so that, having obtained it and dispersed it, one would now have comprehending white people who now, having comprehension, would be brought to the effort of correcting the wrongs. The assumption there being that it is lack of information. An assumption which seemed inevitable to a son of the 19th century, a product of Lincoln, Jefferson, Douglass, of Emerson, of his mama, of his church, of his high school. His commencement speech in his high school was on Wendell Phillips. Certainly if this society knows what he sees, what is going on, they will change it. And it is, and it is they who will change it, white people who have the power and so on and so forth and the numbers. Herbert Aptheke...: So it is a question that they do not know that that must be the answer. By the way, there was an insurrection of slaves in Maryland in 1845. The purpose of which there were about a hundred slaves who fled North and they were going to Washington and several of them captured. What were you going to Washington for? They're going to Washington to tell the people in Washington what was going on. So Du Bois was going to tell the folks what was going on. They didn't know, otherwise it was impossible that it would be permitted. Herbert Aptheke...: That's the first stage. This is of course viewed racism. Also another point, it viewed racism as a kind of aberration in the U.S. Social order. That is, the U.S. social order, otherwise, was on the whole splendid. Superb perhaps is not excessive. And racism was a contradiction to that order. To that order, it was a contradiction. Racism was not then viewed as reflective of that order. And as coming out of it organically and as bulwarking it fundamentally. No, it was seen rather as a pimple upon the face of the United States, a blemish, which those who conducted affairs did not fully understand when they were given the facts and so understood the wrong that existed. They would, of course, the assumption is of course, correct it. Herbert Aptheke...: This is the period characterized by his Atlanta University conferences on what was called the Negro Question. And even his great cry from the heart, as the French say, of The Souls of Black Folk, is that, the title of the book is very significant because it is written at a time when it was affirm that Black folk were not folk were, were not people. The Mystery Solved: The Negro a Beast is published then, and here it is The Souls of Black Folk. The Mormon church still insist Black people don't have it. That's part of the title. It's part of the idea. It's part of the instruction. And of course the book is soulful. Compassionate passing of the first born would make the stone cry. Would not make some people cry, but it would make a stone cry. Herbert Aptheke...: The second phase, Approximately 1903, 1905 is overlapping to about 1925, thereabouts. The conviction grew with the doctor. As result of experience that if it's not simply a question of investigating the truth, with the truth in quotation marks, in my present usage. With the truth, as some kind of disembodied entity dangling on a hook from the heavens. Rather, the truth as a social concept, the truth is dynamic and changing with different epochs and different peoples and different classes having, or at least insisting upon different truths. And the relationship has struggled to the realization of truth, so defined, grew upon him. Herbert Aptheke...: Therefore, this second period is characterized as one that postulates and seeks united action on the part of thinking Americans, white and the Black, to force the truth actively now, to force the truth concerning the position of Black people upon the attention of the nation, the latter rather abstractly defined. And here, the emphasis is upon what Du Bois called his words, thinking Americans, which emphasize the abstract and the subjective. Again, the idealistic as his philosophical training, rather than the specific, the class, the real interests and the objective. Now, in this stage, the assumption was present that the majority of the American people, again amorphous, the majority of the American people would come to the defense of democracy. Again, abstractly considered, never seriously defined, that the majority of the American people would come to the defense of democracy if they understood, now something different, if they understood how racism was threatening democracy, not only for Black people, but for white people and not only in the United States, but in the world. Again, it was made mostly a matter of understanding, not of analyzing who benefits from racism, why it comes into being, how and why it is maintained, and therefore what social organization and what social classes are required if one is to offer effective struggle against it. This is not in the second phase. Herbert Aptheke...: Third. About 1925 to about 1945. That is the great epoch of the Depression and of World War II. And of course the Depression comes earlier to the South by 1927 and earlier to Black people in the South and is of course catastrophic to Black people. Here, what Du Bois called now, he calls it his words, scientific investigation and organized action among Black people. That's the emphasis of this period. Scientific investigation. He never gives that up, never that's in his life, all the time. Truth. Truth. Truth. Herbert Aptheke...: Scientific investigation, and organized action among Black people in the first place in this period. And among those people, in as great unity as possible, in order to secure the survival of the Black people is the period of the Depression. Period of fascism, of genocide in Europe. Of such things that perhaps only Dante or Milton had ever conceived. Going on. In order to secure the survival of the Black people until the cultural development. When he used that word, he meant, I don't know how to explain it. He meant everything. Cultural development. [German word] German. [German word] We don't really have such a word in English. I do not know such a word. Which says something about the United States. Herbert Aptheke...: Cultural development of the United States and the world is willing to recognize Black freedom. Scientific investigation organized actions struggle among Black people in the first place and as great unity as possible in order to secure the survival of the Black people until the cultural development, the humanistic, perhaps, is better development of the United States and the world is brought to such a point that it is willing to recognize Black freedom. That is to say Black adulthood, Black people, as they themselves determine themselves, not someone else says what they are, what they should be and so on and so forth. They themselves. Herbert Aptheke...: As of 1944, Du Bois wrote, "By freedom for Negroes, I meant, and still mean, full economic, political, and social equality with American citizens in thought, in expression, in action with no discrimination based upon race or color." Now, all three stages did not postulate nor advocate basic change in the socioeconomic structure of the United States social order. Herbert Aptheke...: I say this, despite the fact that Du Bois said he was attracted to the logic of socialism by 1904, and that he thought of himself as a socialist in political sense by 1910, but it was distinctly a kind of Fabian socialism. What we used to call, I don't think the term is used anymore, municipal socialism. A social democratic socialism. And that could be submerged, and was with him, in a generally reformistic outlook. But, in the first place, given the level of U.S. Development, this had a distinctly radical ring to it. United States is not England with its labor party or France with its socialists. So that in the United States, in this period, even to be a municipal socialist, a Fabian socialist was to be quite radical. And that must be borne in mind in this period. Certainly in the 1910s and1920s, this is true. Herbert Aptheke...: And in the second place, it was a Black person in the United States with these ideas, so that a white person like Mary White Ovington is radical enough, or Charles Edward Russell, and so on. These are socialists, of course, William English Walling, very radical people, Fabian socialists. But to be Black like George Fraser Miller or J. Milton Waldron or W. E. B. Du Bois, and have that, that's a double radicalism for obvious reasons. And so the ideas took on a special, challenging aspect. Because whether or not the person advocating himself fully, whether he himself fully saw the integral organic and basic connection between racism and the nature of the U.S. Social order. Whether he saw it or not, such a relationship did and does in fact exist. Herbert Aptheke...: ... not such a relationship did and does in fact exist. And therefore, when a Black person in the United States, even with a limited social analysis, puts forth a demand for freedom, even when defined as Du Bois then defined it, essentially in bourgeois democratic terms, it does and did have a deeply challenging character to it. It is socially and historically, in its context, speaking that way, profoundly radical. In each of these three, for a moment, before coming to the fourth, we have looked at these three, as it were, strategically, philosophically, analytically. I wish now to suggest an examination of these three tactically, and to see how he changed his tactics with this transformation in his thinking. At first Du Bois thought of persuading white leaders in the first period, and with them in the forefront, with the white leaders in the forefront, informed now, scientifically, full of facts, understanding the horror and the crucifixion of what is going on, the terrible pimple, them in the forefront rectifying mistakes and unfortunate practices. That's the first tactic, perfectly obvious in terms of his training, in terms of the times and so on and so forth. Herbert Aptheke...: Second. Second move, Du Bois thought, in the second period... And by the way, there's a merging, I don't mean that there's a distinct cleavage, you see that one ends and two is there, and our life isn't like that, of course. It is what we call, in our cumbersome way, dialectically intertwined. Second, Du Bois thought that persuading white and Black leaders, leaders, especially intelligentsia, of the deep injustices involved in the position of Black people. And through their comprehension, Black and white, of that injustice, they would labor agitationally, organizationally, effectively together for its elimination. Basically through political action, legal and political action. Here you still have a rather abstract moralistic approach, although Du Bois did emphasize the mutual character of the disaster of racism. I mean, for Black and white, for democracy, no matter how defined, and for the nation, the interest of the nation, no matter how defined, and also the international ramifications of racism is in this second period and therefore in the Pan-African movement. Herbert Aptheke...: Third. Tactically, Du Bois faced the realities of the Depression, he faced the realities of the lack of success, of significant success in terms of reformist activities with the white and Black intelligentsia and professionals as represented by the leadership and the board of the NAACP. He faced, what he thought, were the realities of the Depression and the lack of success in this second stage. He was always very practical, very realistic, and so he moved therefore, becoming convinced that this was failed, especially with the Depression, he moved more openly, more centrally to economic questions, to national features of the Black people and therefore to self-realization for survival and for self-organization. It is in this period that he becomes more and more attracted, therefore, to Marx and Marxism, and gives the course that I told you about, he makes it very careful study and tries a Marxist work in his Black Reconstruction, not fully successful in my opinion, but explicitly Marxist he thinks. And also for a time Freud, but still not fully in terms of class, not fully in terms of political organization and political struggle based upon a class orientation in a society that was racist and capitalist, and was racist because it was monopoly capitalist. Not yet, that's not yet in his thinking, although the roots are there, you could get isolated sentences, but it is not yet his mind. Herbert Aptheke...: Fourth and final stage of his development was fundamentally Marxism. I have already said to you that I do not think that Dr. Du Bois may be accurately described, certainly in a philosophical sense, as a Marxist, Leninist or a dialectical materialist, certainly not a dialectical materialist. But his predominant thinking now becomes Marxist, and he says so, and he thinks so, Marxism. That just to say, from a concept of salvation by an elite, and in the beginning he used that term, salvation, I'll show you that later. From a concept of salvation by an elite, whether white or Black, or white and Black, or Black and white, however you wish to emphasis, to a concept not of salvation, but of emancipation in terms of an elimination of exploitation. An end to a system based upon the private ownership of the means of production existing for the purpose of appropriating private profit, replaced by a system which operates on the basis of extracting surplus value from labor to a system which is socialist, and therefore revolutionizes the base of the social order. He moves from reformation to transformation. Herbert Aptheke...: In this sense, Du Bois had seen the concepts of separation and of so-called integration, separation either within the United States, for instance, the 49th State Movement, which was fairly strong, especially in Chicago in the 30s, it was the 49th State Movement, in case you don't know it... Separation either within the United States or outside of the United States, especially the Garvey movement, and he'd seen what was called integration, he discarded all of them. Now, usually these, separation, integration, are presented as exhausting the alternatives, in fact, they still are. And now the argument is always posited, either separation, one form or another, integration, one form or another and so that's it, but of course it isn't it at all. That is to say, it isn't all of it. The press, the literature at present, and for most of the period, discuss these two, discuss them to the point of exhaustion and do that as though there is nothing else. Separation, integration, is pure nonsense, of course. Herbert Aptheke...: Besides separation, integration, there is transformation. Which is neither one or the other, and since this is so deep and so profound, and so radical and so revolutionary, it is not on television and is never in the New York Times Magazine, and is never noticed. Integrate with what, with this rot? Separate where? With what Navy, with what army? With what tanks, with what steel industry? With what territory, how obtained? But transformation, that's another program, not for a day, but it is going on. Du Bois came to it. This is based on an understanding of the organic character racism to the nature of the United States social order, and therefore an understanding that the effort to eliminate racism in the United States is not an effort at integration. Integration with what? With a racist society. It's perfectly absurd. Herbert Aptheke...: But is rather an effort at transformation, that is to say making a racist society an egalitarian one, which is not a reform, it is a revolution, because the racism is fundamental to the definition of the society. It is par to the revolutionary movement in the United States, Du Bois insisted finally, to move from an imperialist and therefore racist social order, to an anti-imperialist and a socialist one, or another form of socialism. Of course, we have in the United States, it's going to be American socialism, and therefore egalitarian and consciously anti-racist social order, not overnight but consciously so. All right, but discussions with him, suppose you have a socialist revolution on Monday, will you have no racism in Mississippi on Tuesday? Oh, Herbert, you will probably have racism in Mississippi for several Tuesdays thereafter. But it will be so arranged and the power will be so held, and the duress will be so directed that the society will be consciously anti-racist and it will fight against it, and racism will be a cancer in such a society instead of a bulwark. And therefore, on some bright Tuesday, Mississippi too will be egalitarian. The struggles, anti-racism, anti-imperialism, anti-colonialism, for socialism, for egalitarianism, for self-fulfillment, they're all one struggle or all aspects of one struggle. That's the final position of the doctor. Herbert Aptheke...: The last 20 years of his life, Du Bois came to that belief. Therefore he moved, now we're getting to the tactics, he therefore moved from reliance upon white or Black, or Black and white, to reliance upon united masses of people. He moved from reliance upon an elite white or Black, Black and white, into reliance upon mass, and in that mass, especially laboring people. He moved from reliance upon scientific investigation to effective mass organization, which, of course, does not rule out accurate knowledge but rather requires such knowledge and then struggles to make it come alive, to put that knowledge into practice. To unite theory and practice, fundamental tenet of Marxism, and thus to forge a revolutionary struggle. In all this, Du Bois insisted upon the integrity of the Black people, and the insistence of a people who were Black people as there were French people or Russian people or Chinese people. And this is, without any question, a central theme in his life, from the Conservation of Races and before, he never changed that opinion, he sharpened it. Herbert Aptheke...: He insisted upon the national quality of the Black people in the United States, and therefore upon the right to, and the necessity for, their own development and their own realization. Not separate from, let alone hostile to the development of any other people, but in a complimentary sense as with any other people. In a fraternal sense, and in the largest sense, because of history as a fundamental part of what is called the United States, but a self-determined people flowering in diversity and in unity in fraternal regard. The Brown, the Black, the Indian, the White, with other elements. Why not? Why not? Only because the root is competitive and jealous, and anti-human and exploitative, and antisocial, that is why not. With that root transformed, so that the bias of the social order is in the direction of fraternal living, that that's the pressure, so that the objective requirements of the nature of the social organization off of mutual regard and help, rather than, as now, for mutual hostility and deadly and antagonistic competition, one could, does not that one would at once, one could then have a United States that might be really united, and might be worthy of the best dreams. From Nat Turner to John Brown, from Gurley Flynn to Angela Y Davis. That was his final stage. Herbert Aptheke...: Let us turn now to read from Du Bois briefly and to see this. Prior to the reading, I'm going to make a point because Du Bois keeps writing about men. Men, men, all men, men, men. He fell into this male habit, this male linguistic habit, but there was no one who was less a male supremacist of his generation than the doctor, and happily, he made very clear that when he said men he meant women too. Now, you know that from his Men Of The Month department in The Crisis, he'd have men of the month and then you might find three women. But you don't have to depend on that, this is Dr. Du Bois in a little known piece, it was a speech which was published in the Christian Register. It's the only place that I've been able to find it, in Boston, October 26, 1905, it's called the Negro Ideals of Life. And by the way, this is a very significant title, he believed in Negro ideals, which [inaudible] service. Herbert Aptheke...: And that's in his Harvard commencement address, which is delivered before the wife of the President of the United States and the Anglican Bishop and everybody else, and what is his title? Jefferson Davis as a Representative American. And what is the point? That we Black people are bringing something very necessary. "Jefferson Davis, with his so-called courage, with his sadism, with his anti-humanism, with his racism, a representative American. The African brings service, not self, but selflessness, not the individual, but the collective, not arrogance, but humility, not cruelty, but compassion." That's the speech of the 20 year old kid. "You got ten minutes," they said to Willie, "ten minutes." And some people think this is Booker T Washington, that's 1890. "Who are men," in 1905, "Who are men? It is not simply the capitalists who are men, it is not simply the laborers, it is not simply the men who are men, but men's mothers and daughters too. And finally, that the world of men holds men of many colors and races, and it is not white men alone who aspire to life's higher ideals and demand the possibility of their realization for them and their children." All right, that's who men are. Herbert Aptheke...: Briefly some readings from what I gave you too, very briefly, this is The Talented Tenth, here's the heart now, "The Negro race, like all other races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men." I explained men, notice the word saved, saved. "The problem of education, then, among Negroes must first of all deal with The Talented Tenth." Here's where he puts it forward. "It is the problem of developing the Best of this race that they may guide the Mass away from the contamination and death of the worst, in their own and other races." Notice that the poor are the worst, which of course is true in English. Poor has two meanings, poor, you have no money. Poor, you have no merit. Right? Right. Herbert Aptheke...: Rich has two meanings. Rich, you have a lot of money. Rich, a lot of it, it's rich cream, it's a rich joke. Noble, the nobility, noble man. Poor, as Shakespeare would say, rich, rich, not the same thing. So it is not from them, there will be the worst. It is The Talented Tenth, "Now the training of men is a difficult and intricate task. Its technique is a matter for educational experts, but its object is for the vision of seers. If we make money the object of man-training, we shall develop money-makers but not men, if we make technical skill the object of education, we may possess artisans but not, in nature, men. Men we shall have only as we make manhood the object of the work of the schools, broad sympathy, knowledge of the world that was and is, and of the relation of men to it, this is the curriculum of that higher education which must underlie true life. On this foundation, we may build breadwinning skill of hand and quickness of brain, all of which we desperately need with never a fear lest the child and man mistake the means of living for the object of life." Herbert Aptheke...: Same source, "Can the masses of the Negro people be in any possible way more quickly raised than by the effort and example of this aristocracy of talent and character?" Notice the assumption of the function of The Talented Tenth is service, is devotion to the mass. "Was there ever a nation on God's fair earth civilized from the bottom upward?" Please notice the word nation, he's talking about his own people. He uses that word very often, we are a nation, as his appeal to the UN in 1947, this is 1903. "Was there ever a nation on God's fair earth civilized from the bottom upward? Never. It is, ever was and ever will be from the top downward that culture filters." Herbert Aptheke...: Same source, "Men of America," which men? It's assumed. Listen, "Men of America, the problem is plain before you," now that you have the facts, "Here is a race transplanted through the criminal foolishness of your fathers." That is the men of America, white men. "Whether you like it or not the millions are here, and here they will remain. If you do not lift them up, they will pull you down. Education and work are the levers to uplift a people. Work alone will not do it unless inspired by the right ideals and guided by intelligence. Education must not simply teach work, of course it must teach that but it must teachl life. The Talented Tenth of the Negro race must be made leaders of thought and missionaries of culture among their people. No others can do this work and Negro colleges must train men for it. The Negro race, like all other races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men." Herbert Aptheke...: Now, here's the essay for Logan, 1944. Note the difference, "The hope of civilization lies not in exclusion, but in inclusion of all human elements, we find the richness of humanity not in the Social Register, but in the City Directory, not in the great aristocracies, the chosen people and chosen races, but in the throngs of disinherited and underfed men." Listen, "Not the lifting of the lowly..." Now, "Not the lifting of the lowly, but the unchaining of the unawakened mighty, will reveal the possibilities of genius, gift and miracle, in mountainous treasure-trove, which hitherto civilization has scarcely touched, and yet boasted blatantly and even glorified in its poverty. In world-wide equality of human development is the answer to every meticulous taste and each rare personality." Herbert Aptheke...: This is his 1958 essay for Helen Alfred, "Thus it is clear today to me," and this is not rhetoric with him, he means, now it is clear to me, "That the salvation of American Negroes lies in socialism. They should support all measures and men who favor the welfare state," notice his municipal socialism, "who favor the welfare state, they should vote for government ownership of capital in industry, they should favor strict regulation of corporations or their public ownership, they should vote to prevent monopoly from controlling the press and the publishing of opinions. They should favor public ownership and control of water, electric, and atomic power, they should stand for a clean ballot, the encouragement of third parties and independent politics and candidates. The question of the method by which the socialist state can be achieved must be worked out by experiment and reason and not by dogma. Whether or not methods which were right and clear in Russia and China fit our circumstances is for our intelligence of course to decide. Herbert Aptheke...: The atom bomb has revolutionized our thought, peace is not only preferable today, it is increasingly inevitable. Passive resistance is not the end of action, but the beginning. After refusing to fight, there is the question how to live. The Negro church, which stops discrimination against bus riders," notice this please, "The Negro church, which stops discrimination against bus riders must next see how those riders can earn a decent living, and not remain helplessly exploited by those who own buses and make Jim Crow laws. The next thing is not only to be able to ride the bus, the next thing is, who owns the bus?" Herbert Aptheke...: Now finally, in his autobiography, which I edited. I'd like to say a word about that editing, because Mr. Logan has been under a misapprehension and I've explained it to him in a letter, I said in the preface to that that I did not touch anything substantively. And it would never have occurred to me to alter the thinking of Dr. Du Bois, and it never occurred to me that anybody would think that I would do this until I found Mr. Logan doing it. Of course, what I wrote in that preface is the truth, I normally tell the truth, but when I write a preface to Dr. Du Bois, you can be sure I'm telling the truth. Herbert Aptheke...: And I said in that, that I changed nothing of his own meaning, his words are his words. There were problems of decipherment, there was abbreviation, the doctor used to lapse into Latin every once in a while, I Englished it as best I could. He sometimes had German in great length, he was bilingual, put it into English. He had no first names to people, he had sometimes a statistical error, and this kind of, more or less, hack editing work I did with a bibliography and so on and so forth, but of course I changed nothing. Neither the order, nor the substance, nor what he said, this is Du Bois- Herbert Aptheke...: Neither the order, nor the substance, nor what he said. This is Du Bois. I say that only because I found to my astonishment that this was otherwise suggested by Mr. Logan himself. I just quite didn't understand, but I've explained it to him. Now this, therefore, is Du Bois in the autobiography. He wrote this when he was about a 90, 1960. Herbert Aptheke...: Just a few things. "Perhaps the most extraordinary characteristic of current America is the attempt to reduce life to buying and selling. Life is not love. Unless love is sex and bought and sold. Life is not knowledge, save knowledge of technique of science for destruction. Life is not beauty, except beauty for sale. Life is not art unless it's priced as high, it's sold for a profit. All life is production for profit and for what profit, but for buying and selling again. Even today, the contradictions of American civilization are tremendous. Herbert Aptheke...: Freedom of political discussion is difficult. Elections are not free and fair. Democracy is for us to a large extent really unworkable. In business, there is a tremendous amount of cheating and stealing, gambling. It is common custom for distinguished persons to sign books, articles, and speeches they did not write, and everybody knows it. For men have brains to compose and sell opinions, which they do not believe. Ghostwriting is a profession." This always astonished Du Bois. He used to talk to me about it. "Ghostwriting," he says, "Ghosts are writing your speeches." Herbert Aptheke...: "The greatest power in the land is not sword or ethics, but wealth and the persons who exercise the power of wealth are not necessarily its owners, but those who direct its use. And the truth about this direction is so far as possible, kept a secret. We do not know really who owns our vast property and resources so that most of our argument concerning wealth and its use must be based on guesswork." Again, there is the fanatic for facts. "Those responsible for the misuse of wealth escape responsibility, and even the owners of capital frequently do not know for what is being used and how. The criterion of industry and trade is the profit that accrues not the good which it does, either really to its owners or to the public. Present profit is valued higher than future need. We waste materials. We refuse to make repairs." Herbert Aptheke...: We cheat and deceive in manufactured goods. We have succumbed to an increased use of lying and misrepresentation. In the last ten years, at least a thousand books have been published to prove that the fight to preserve Negro slavery in America was a great and noble cause led by worthy man of eminence. I know the United States, it is my country, the land of my fathers. It is still a land of magnificent possibilities. It is still a home of noble souls and generous people, but it is selling its birthright. It is betraying its mighty destiny. I was born on its soil and educated in its schools and I love it." He did. This was a terrible feature of his tragedy. He did. "I have served my country to the best of my ability. I have never knowingly broke its laws or unjustly attacked its reputation. At the same time, I have pointed out its injustices and crimes and blamed it, rightly I think, for its mistakes. It has given me education, given me some of its honors, for which I am thankful. Herbert Aptheke...: Today the United States is the leading nation in the world, which apparently believes that war is the only way to settle present disputes and difficulties. For this reason, it is spending fantastic sums of money and wasting wealth and energy on the preparation for war or the conduct of war, which is nothing less than criminal. Yet apparently, those who lead the United States dare not stop spending money for war. Therefore, we prepare for what must be a third world war. We spread our soldiers in arms over the earth and we bribe every damned nation, every repressive nation we can, to become our allies. We are taxing our citizens into poverty, crime, and unemployment and systematically distorting the truth about socialism." Herbert Aptheke...: Finally, this is his conclusion, which I put in italics because he underlined the words. I would not put in italics if he did not do so. He underlined the following words and he had the heading. The heading is Communism. And these are his words, italicized, "I have studied socialism and communism law." This is his conclusion on social transformation, "And carefully in lands where they are practiced and in conversation with their adherence and with their opponents and with wide reading. I now near the end of my life. State my conclusion frankly and clearly. I believe in communism, I mean by communism, a planned way of life and the production of wealth and work designed for building a state whose object is the highest welfare of its people and not the profit of a few. Herbert Aptheke...: I believe that all men should be employed according to their ability and that wealth and services should be distributed according to need. Once I thought that these ends could be attained under capitalism, means the production privately owned and used in accord with free individual initiative. After earnest observation, I now believe that private ownership of capital and free enterprise are leading the world to disaster. I do not believe that so-called people's capitalism has in the United States or anywhere replaced the real ills of private capitalism and shown an answer to socialism. The corporation is about the legal mass behind which the individual owner of wealth hides. Herbert Aptheke...: Democratic government in any real sense in the United States is almost ceased to function. A fourth of the adults are disfranchised, half the legal voters do not go to the polls, we are ruled by those who control wealth and who by that power buy or coerce public opinion. I shall therefore hereafter help the triumph of communism," as he's defined it, "in every honest way that I can without deceit or hurt and in any way possible without war and with goodwill to all men of all colors, classes, and creeds. Herbert Aptheke...: If because of this belief and such action, which I announce, I become the victim of attacking and calumny, I will react in the way that seems to me best for the world in which I live, in which I have tried earnestly to serve. I know well that the triumph of communism will be a slow and difficult task involving mistakes of every sort. It will call for a progressive change in human nature and a better type of manhood than is common today. I think this possible, or otherwise we will continue to lie, steal and kill as we are doing today. This is the excuse for this writing, which I call a soliloquy." Those are Dr. Du Bois' opinions on social transformation. Thank you. Speaker 2: I wish to thank Mr. Aptheker for his lecture. I wish only to comment, but you will discover as a consequence of that lecture, that "approach" obviously has a double meaning in his thinking and it's not simple [inaudible] took it to be. The definition of a systematic way of looking at social transformation, but it is obviously the description of an evolutionary process toward social transformation. And that was a subtly which escaped me until the lecture itself occurred. I'm sure that you all have many questions about the lecture. And now of course, is the opportunity to put these questions. And since I'd never wait, obviously, for you to offer the questions, I wish to begin by posing one or two questions myself, Mr Aptheker. I'm particularly interested in the first of these changes in Du Bois' thought, that is to say from the young German trained intellectual who return to America with, as perhaps some of us think of today, as a somewhat to a naive notion of that the truth will be immediately acceptable and that the world would be transformed by a systematic study of the condition of the Negro. Speaker 2: And with this particular kind of illumination social structure with alter. Obviously reinforcement for this idea came from the close collaboration existing in Germany, between the social thought there and the German state. Now my question is this, and I will not make the mistake of sometimes my younger colleagues make of making a speech before I get around to putting the question. My question to you is this don't you think that the movement from that position to a second, which you have defined, beginning about 1905, was conditioned by the unparalleled attack upon the Negro, which occurred beginning in 1890. Speaker 2: That is I'm thinking obviously here, and once again, we have to remember the times that was a period, almost a kind of grace period from about 1865 to 1890. But it's in the 1890s, that discrimination was codified in the South. That with the codification of this discrimination came this tremendous intellectual and rhetorical attack upon the Negro, which we remember now in the fiction say of Thomas Dixon, in The Clansman, which we recall obviously by the popularity of racist theories, even in academic institutions, beginning with Gobineau and terminating with Lothrop Stoddard. This great development of that, it's what pseudo-thought, is it that, let's say, power, the virulence of that attack. Do you think that's the essential reason for the movement from his first position to his second position? Herbert Aptheke...: Absolutely. It is. It is in fact. It is. In fact, if I may say so, something which I labored very hard to show in an article, which was called American Imperialism and White Chauvinism, which was published in July, 1956, that is to say published about three years before Mr. Woodward. Although Mr. Woodward failed to read it or to acknowledge it. It is also in my documentary, which is in 1951. That's a long time before 1956. Also yesterday, you remember that I tried to make this point on Booker T. Washington. And of course Mr. Logan has written a book, The Nadir, in which he documents this development. This is absolutely fundamental. Within the time limit of a single lecture I did not think it was possible for me to give you history and Du Bois and the transformation of his thinking. I do not know how I could have done that. I've tried to do it in print and writing, but I'm very obliged to you, Mr. Davis, for this basic point that, of course, all these changes were not simply abstract changes that Dr. Du Bois spun out of his mind. Herbert Aptheke...: And another thing I want you to see is not only the practicality of the man, but the honesty of the man taught himself. He never became enamored of his own position. He was always subject to reexamination and he had very deep commitments, even emotional commitments to life of scholarship, for example, temperamental commitments. But when he found that that first view didn't work, he had to change and he accepted the NAACP, the Niagara Movement, and so on in order to make that change. Herbert Aptheke...: When that didn't work, in his opinion, the NAACP, the legal effort, the reformist effort, he fought within the NAACP to change it. He tried to change the board. He tried to get Abe Harris to join the board, for example, a young Marxist thinker. He tried to get Jessie Fauset, a young woman, onto the board and so on, but he failed. Failing, he couldn't change it, he announced his reasons, he left and he never attacked, of course, the NAACP. He would never do that for several reasons. One is, he may be wrong. The other is that you are living in a white world and you do not attack your brothers in a white world. You have a hard enough struggle as it is. And so you carry on your work elsewhere without such attack. He never washed dirty linen in public, never. So this is a very important point. Speaker 3: Yes. I'm a little concerned about Du Bois image of man and the philosophical stance that seems to orient his philosophy. Certainly he must have known art and he must have known himself. In so many words, can you give me some sort of view of what he says about man and how this informs his social thought? Herbert Aptheke...: I think that Dr. Du Bois' view of man was the view of one stream of Christianity. Of course, two views. One that he is as God. And one that he is as a worm. Two streams in Christianity, from which I think he followed all sorts of streams of Christian behavior, because you would act differently if he is indeed a worm or God, but that is in Christianity and it is in many other things. And it is in Marx. Herbert Aptheke...: "How like unto God is he," says Shakespeare and says Marx. Marx has a very elevated view of mankind, of the potential of mankind. So did Du Bois. He rejected the concepts of the innate evil, of the rottenness, and so on. I might add to this that he retained this beautiful faith, as all of us radicals do. But he retained it with a certain naivety, so that he was always shocked at certain things, especially betrayals by friends. One of the things that almost killed him, literally almost killed him, was when he was indicted, when he was 80, by this government. And when Black friend after friend turned backs upon him, when his lifelong friend, Dr. Louis T. Wright would not answer his letters. When the friend in Los Angeles, California, a dentist, whose behavior was so despicable, I shouldn't mention his name, refused to see him and published a letter in the Los Angeles press attacking him. Herbert Aptheke...: When at the birthday celebration, the Black leadership so-called, one after another son telegrams, "We can't come. Withdraw our names," and so on. He couldn't believe it, especially of his people. So he had a naive faith, which was beautiful because he had it until he was 95 and he had the capacity to be shocked all his life. And so when, I shall never forget, the beauty of John Hope Franklin, rather conservative man, and his politics, and then a very young man still, if I may say so, on his way up, John held firm to the commitment to talk, came, delivered a beautiful speech on Cleo and a tribute to the doctor. Doctor was tremendously touched by that. That was a great thing. It's a great thing for Langston Hughes to stand firm. So of course, many did and rank and file did, so that there was a tremendous stirring in the branches of the NAACP. Why does not the NAACP organize a defense? Why does it not speak? And Walter White went about whispering, "We cannot do it. The old man is guilty. We have seen the evidence with our own eyes." Speaker 2: What are the difficulties with Mr. Aptheker's dichotomy is that the holders of the worms view always seem to behave like Gods. Obviously the behavior of John Calvin and Geneva, and they are American examples as you just explained it. Herbert Aptheke...: You know the lines of James Russell Lowell, hey? That a lie or something is always on the throne, and truth is always on the scaffold. But you know, only those two lines are recited, not the other two lines. The truth is always on the scaffold, but it is truth that rules the world, finally. Something like that, it ends up very positively. Speaker 2: It's a wretched point, but- Herbert Aptheke...: Especially as I deliver it. But Du Bois, my point is Du Bois knew all four lines. Speaker 2: Yes. With that long preamble, [crosstalk]. Speaker 4: You mentioned that Du Bois was influenced by Freudianism but you said only temporarily. I'm curious about why you left it at that. Herbert Aptheke...: Well it wasn't really a very significant, he read in Freud. He felt that Freud offered a significant corrective to his own training, which had been very rationalistic and philosophical, rather than psychological, even with William James. He recognized that, but he thought that as between Freud and Marx, he would pick Marx, and that particularly as Freudianism was developed in this country, which of course has a genius to ruin everything, that it was so exaggerated, and so caricatured really in terms of Freud so that... You'll find it in his writings after the 30s, once in a while, sometimes they'll refer to Freud, but it is not a significant influence in his life. It is a corrective, which I think should be mentioned the way I do it. Now maybe, especially with your caution, I should re-examine that view. Maybe it has more influence, but I don't think so. Speaker 4: Yes, Mr. Aptheker, thank you. I wonder if you'f comment on one of the other evolving dimensions of Du Bois' thought, and that is, in certain of his analytical more astute analytical study of internal problems with regard to the condition of the Negro, say in works like the Philadelphia Negro or The Negro, can you comment on, or do you can see any parallel developmental consistencies with regard to a trend of thought about that? I think there are some movement from a book like the Philadelphia Negro, which is, I guess in be early- Herbert Aptheke...: 1899. Speaker 4: [crosstalk] Later. Herbert Aptheke...: Yes. There certainly is such a change. And I try to indicate it in my paper. I'm sure I didn't do it sufficiently. Speaker 4: May I? One thing before you start. Herbert Aptheke...: Please. Speaker 4: For instance, his idea that certain conditions, or the certain problems with regards to Negroes were his own doing. Herbert Aptheke...: Were the Negroes own? Black people? Speaker 4: Yes. Were his own cause and origin, and was given his own particular background development. He just naturally [crosstalk]. Herbert Aptheke...: He drops that very early. And as Mr. Moses pointed out this was similar to Booker T. Washington in The Conservation of Racism, but it disappears from Du Bois, and the whole concentration is on the social dimensions and the ruling class, or if he doesn't use the term "class", the dominant whites and so on. And he has very important things by the way, on such subject as crime, which I mean would be very important today to collect, Du Bois on crime, on prisoners, on prisons and so on, on delinquency, very important. So he drops that, that's one change. Now, there are several other things. Herbert Aptheke...: As I did remark in my paper, tactically, he begins by a basic dependence upon the white. Then he moves from that to white and black. He then moves from that to fundamentally black and white. And then he moves to a very firm idea of unity in terms of Marxism, world unity, not just black and white. So you have that transition tactically, which is of course very important. On the other hand, and this is somewhat contradictory. And of course the man is a very complex man, and you have certain contradictions. With all this, you never get from Du Bois anything but a national feeling. Herbert Aptheke...: In my opinion, Mr. Vincent Harding emphasizing that is quite correct. I have all sorts of differences with, with Mr. Harding. I'm sure he'd be happy for me to announce that. But in this sense, I believe that this is so. Du Bois has what can only be called a national feeling, as I emphasized in my paper, that Black people are a people like the French people, the Chinese people, the Italian people, and so on, of a particular kind, their own culture, their own psyche, their own religion, their own music and so on and so forth. Herbert Aptheke...: And that this is precious and beautiful and magnificent and characterizes them and offers a great contribution as other people. Now with this, that is steady from the beginning, from Conservation on, from 1890, from his speech at Harvard on, absolutely. Now, you do get as he matures, or grows, or ages, whichever word you wish, develops. You do get on his part an increasing emphasis upon self fulfillment, self determination. And by the 1920s, for example, he's insisting in the educational Black people, that Black people must be in control of this education. Not exclusively, not exclusively. Herbert Aptheke...: Not exclusively, not exclusively, but fundamentally. It is their education, and to have white boards of trustees, white presidents, white professors, as Lincoln University in Pennsylvania had. I think, until around 1930, they'd never had a Black professor. He said, "This is simply a scandal. This is ridiculous." He said, "It's absurd." Herbert Aptheke...: This emphasis upon self, self-identity, self-fulfillment, self-management, and so on, all of which is so discussed today, is in Du Bois going way, way, way back. It is never not in him, but grows in him. This is not at all contradictory to his Marxism, which is a dialectical process, you see. You can have diversity and unity, self-fulfillment and self-fulfillment within a fraternal whole. As a matter of fact, it is Christianity. You find yourself through denying yourself. There again, you have a certain ideological convergence between Christianity and Marxism, and that's a commercial for my book, The Urgency of Marxist–Christian Dialogue, published by Harper & Row recently. It is not an identity, but it is a convergence. Why? Because they are both revolutionary. Speaker 5: Could you discuss the [inaudible] Dr. Du Bois's view of violence in the sense [inaudible] role of violence in order to achieve certain [inaudible]? Herbert Aptheke...: Yes. Question of violence. Dr. Du Bois was never a pacifist. You will sometimes find him saying he is, but he's using it about... Like he says, "I'm a socialist." It has all sorts of meanings, and he does not mean a pacifist in the sense of Gandhi or Martin Luther King or Thoreau. Never. Herbert Aptheke...: Du Bois was opposed, of course, as any sane person is, to violence per se. He sought peaceful solutions. He knew that where violence occurred in any social sense, it came from reaction, not from revolution. It was not Sam Adams who fired the first shot, it was George III. It wasn't Lenin who fired the first shot. It was the Czar and Kerensky, not Lenin. This is true of all revolutions, without exception. The source of the violence is in reaction. It is not Abe Lincoln, it is Jefferson Davis. He knew that, but he also knew or felt or believed it right for Lincoln to reply to Jefferson Davis. In that sense, he's not a pacifist. Herbert Aptheke...: Mr. Du Bois carried a shotgun when he traveled in the South. Mr. Du Bois carried a pistol in the North. Had a pistol. Had a pistol permit. Nathan Hare somewhere says he didn't. I don't know where he found that out. He's wrong. He did. I have the permit in my own possession. I don't have the pistol. At least not that one. Because you know I worked in the South for years, I was the secretary of the Abolish Peonage Committee, and the only reason I'm here before you is that I packed two pistols in Oglethorpe County, Georgia. Speaker 2: We didn't realize, indeed, that Mr. Aptheker had something in common with John Wayne, but apparently [inaudible]. Herbert Aptheke...: Mr. Aptheker's a Jewish John Wayne, like Moshe Dayan. Herbert Aptheke...: I don't know whether I finish this. In Du Bois, you will find passages that are among the most militant ever to come from a Black person, and that's about as much as the English language can say. You will find him in 1912: "The only way to stop the mob is to go out and kill them." You will find that he wrote Claude McKay's poem in 1912, not 1919. I'm sure Claude McKay read it. It was in an editorial in which he said, "If a mob attacks, we must stand and fight and fight back the cowardly pack and not die as a bale of hay," he says. McKay was in Tuskegee; he must've read those lines. I'm convinced of it. At any rate, he said bale of hay rather than hogs, as McKay said, because that was after the Waco massacre, when they burned the Black people. Herbert Aptheke...: You will find passages in Du Bois that just will make you fly. So anyone who thinks of this person, this little five-foot-eight-or-seven man with his spats and his cane and so on... He lived down there, folks, and you didn't mess with him. That's a very big part of Du Bois. Now, when he attacked Booker T. Washington in New York, they beat the hell out of him and he ran away. That's the mass leader. When he had a battle with a conductor to get a seat on the train, he got the seat and the porter brought him a pillow. That was in Kentucky. That wasn't in New York. So don't make any mistakes about this mild little man. Speaker 2: You had a question. Speaker 6: Yeah. I wonder if you could say something about exactly what precipitated the feud between Walter White and Dr. Du Bois, and why it is on the album, at least the album that I have, 33 1/3, he describes Walter White as a despicable man. Was this a matter of airing dirty linen in public? Herbert Aptheke...: I don't think so because he came very late. You're talking about the record, The Autobiography of Du Bois, where he talks about himself. That comes very late. Walter is long dead, Du Bois is around 90, so I don't think it violates this. You will not find him doing it early. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, for example, when Walter wrote his own autobiography, A Man Called White, which I reviewed, Du Bois didn't. Du Bois didn't review that, didn't talk about Walter, and I was editing a magazine and asked him to. He said, "No. Let someone else review Walter White." Now, I said to the doctor, "You know that Mr. White writes his autobiography and manages almost never to mention your name." So the doctor looked up a little, he smiled a little, and he said, "Well, that's like Walter," but he didn't, you see, at that point. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, you asked me my opinion. I will give you my opinion since you asked it. With Mr. Walter White, you had an egocentric individual, almost to a pathological stage, and one who was altogether unlike Du Bois in that a basic drive of Mr. White, with all his courage and effectiveness, was power. He was a tremendous bureaucrat; a genius as a bureaucrat. You get the power. Du Bois wasn't and paid no attention to it. In this sense, Du Bois was like Debs, out there fighting, and meanwhile the hacks back there had the treasury and the rolls and took the party, the socialist party, away from Debs and killed it. Herbert Aptheke...: Du Bois was out there fighting and struggling, and writing the resolutions, and presenting the petitions, and leading the anti-lynching crusade, and so on. I don't mean that Walter didn't go out, he did, and very often very heroically, but in the office with his secretariat, with Roy Wilkins, with others, getting the votes in the board, in the meetings, that's what counts, and rejecting Du Bois's suggestions of changes and so on. Herbert Aptheke...: Finally, of course, there was a round-robin in the '20. The '20s? Either the late '20s or the early '30s that Du Bois had all of them sign. William Pickens and, I think, Roy Wilkins, but I may be wrong, Bagnall, Robert Bagnall, and others, protesting the one-man dictatorship that Mr. White was building up, and so on and so forth. But when it came down to it and the board supported White and so on, everybody withdrew their signature except one man, and I'll let you guess who that man was. They all said they signed in mistake and they regret it and they didn't want to sign it and so on. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, in this egocentric concentration, as well as his substantive differences with Mr. White, because, of course, Mr. White never became a radical of this nature and for reasons very convincing to Mr. White, I'm sure, remained a reformist, one who supported Mr. Truman and the Cold War, and so on and so forth, and didn't want this anti-imperialist image. Didn't go for the 1945 meeting of the Pan-African Conference, and then tried to take away the appeal to the UN, which was Du Bois's idea from Du Bois. He wanted to write the introduction and so on. There was big in-fighting and Du Bois became disgusted with it. Du Bois hated that kind of thing, and Walter loved it, thrived on it, was an expert at it. That's, I think, what Du Bois meant in terms of despicable, which perhaps is an unfortunate term. He was an altogether different person from Du Bois. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, there are certain subjective things. Du Bois brought him in, you see, and Du Bois was, of course, about 45 years older. There were other things too. In the rare moment of anger, he said, "Walter White is white," for instance. That's very unusual for Du Bois, very, and it shows extreme impatience and provocation. He said, "He's a white man." He says this. I think he puts it in print. I've read his unprinted and printed so much I can't be sure, but I think this is in print, isn't it. It's in print, which is also a mark of tremendous provocation. Speaker 2: Yes. Speaker 7: But isn't it also true that in the, well, late '20s and '30s, and then, of course, on up through the '50s and, of course, [inaudible] continues for a long time, there was always that fear on the part of the NAACP establishment, if I may call it that, of communism and from the death threats of the Palmer Raids on [inaudible]. But anyway, is that fair to say? So that perhaps some of Walter White's lack of cooperation, or whatever you want to call it, with Du Bois perhaps was based upon his feeling that the structure of the organization itself, and perhaps the effectiveness of it, would be hampered by any threat of that. At least, this is the impression I've had in the '30s, and I certainly felt that in the '40s when I was doing some work with this. Herbert Aptheke...: This is true in the '40s. It is less true in the '30s, except in the Scottsboro case where Du Bois also felt this and where Du Bois was intensely anti-party. Du Bois, of course, in the '30s was intensely anti-party, and the party anti–Du Bois. Part of the differences were basic in terms that this is the center of his municipal socialist–reformist period, early in the New Deal, and so there was a very substantive difference between the communist position and Dr. Du Bois's position, and they both said so. Herbert Aptheke...: I know in the correspondence that they wanted Du Bois to go further, and he never did. He never red-baited. For instance, in the series he ran on the Communist Party while inviting other people and so on, including communists, which was typical of his integrity, the whole impact of the symposium is certainly not anticommunist. On the contrary. Then, in conferences he always joined in meetings with communists, people like Jim Ford was a very good friend of his, so he maintained a relationship of respect but bitter difference, and he was perfectly capable of doing that. Very bitter difference with argument; substantive argument and so on. The idea of self-determination, he thought was wrong, and things like that. Herbert Aptheke...: But in the '40s, with the Cold War, I think this is part of his choice of the word despicable in terms of opportunism; self-serving. He would consider that despicable, as I do, if you're interested. Walter White certainly turned in that direction. Then, with the McCarthy era, as I say, he went around saying that Du Bois were guilty and that he knew it. Of course, that's despicable behavior, and Du Bois knew that he was doing at, you see. If that isn't despicable, I don't know what is. Herbert Aptheke...: But in the '20s, no, of course. Walter White does not come to the NAACP until around 1921, I believe. That about right? Speaker 2: [crosstalk]. Herbert Aptheke...: He worked as a young cashier. Speaker 2: [crosstalk] preceded him. Herbert Aptheke...: Yeah, and then he was the assistant, of course, to Johnson. Speaker 2: [inaudible]. Herbert Aptheke...: But he came up after World War I and did wonderful work, of course. Heroic work, heroic work, in the investigation of lynching, taking his life in his hands, and wrote marvelous things, and was then with Du Bois, a disciple of Du Bois. Du Bois knew the White family in Atlanta and brought him up and so on, which may have, as I suggest to you, a certain subjectivity in the approach in terms of knowing a young man and helping him, which he had with Roy Wilkins too, whom he helped. Herbert Aptheke...: But in that period, certainly, this fear, which was quite opportunistic although very widespread, of course, the whole country at it, yes, it was present then. Speaker 2: [inaudible]. Speaker 4: I read [inaudible] dissertation on Walter White and lived pretty closely to [inaudible]. I had a feeling Walter White viewed more the NAACP more as a pressure group and that he was much more aware of political pressure and tactics. It's often very difficult to see whether it was personal power that he wanted or whether it was simply the political machinations, which he knew, I suppose, much more intimately than Du Bois. I had the feeling he was much more of a fighter and probably would use devious tactics and so forth. Although, you would have to have ego and courage in order to assume this. So I would say that perhaps it was not only major differences, unless you would spell out some of these ideological differences that they might have [crosstalk]. Herbert Aptheke...: Oh, there were very significant differences. One is that Mr. White supported Truman and Mr. Du Bois supported Wallace. The difference between them was, in 1948, colossal. Speaker 4: [crosstalk] Truman did more for Black people than any other president since, what, Abraham Lincoln [crosstalk]. Herbert Aptheke...: I'm not sure of that and don't particularly want to get into that here. I would, myself, doubt it. Speaker 4: I would say many students of Black history- Herbert Aptheke...: Maybe, and I would be one who would contest that. But quite apart from that, quite apart from that, you asked about the differences. Speaker 4: Yes. Herbert Aptheke...: See, I'm not arguing, I'm just relating differences, and one very real difference was Du Bois's support of the Progressive Party and of the Wallace movement. White was altogether opposed to that and denounced him for that and said he was acting politically. Then Du Bois says, "Well, you're supporting Truman. Why aren't you acting politically? So you're not opposed to political action. You're opposed to particular kinds of political action. That's what you're telling me I can't do." Herbert Aptheke...: You couldn't tell Du Bois not to do something. You could tell him that there was something wrong with it, but you could not tell him that, "I say to you, 'Don't you do...'" That was one of his big arguments with Booker T. Washington, by the way. Booker T. Washington dominated the press, and he said what was to be said and not to be said. One of the central points of Du Bois is, "We have to fight for our own freedom. Nobody can tell us, tie our hands and say we mustn't say that. If we think it, we've got to say it. If he thinks something else, let him say it." The fight against censorship by the Tuskegee machine is absolutely a basic point to the doctor. You don't know that, you don't understand one of the very fundamental differences. This was true with White. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, of course, the whole foreign policy, that is the Cold War. What we are trying, I suppose, in our American way to terminate, I hope so, I'm not sure, but what has caused the catastrophe to this country, from napalming Greece to napalming Vietnam. It begins, of course, with Mr. Truman, and Du Bois denounces it at the time. He doesn't wait for the revisionist historians of 1972, who are suddenly discovering that Du Bois was right all the time. He was right in 1947. Herbert Aptheke...: Now, Walter White defended that policy; wanted that policy. Du Bois was opposed to that policy. It was a fundamental conflict, and therefore, in the whole Pan-African movement, Du Bois wanted that movement and wanted it anti-imperialist. Walter White wanted to kill it. He did kill it. That is, he took the NAACP altogether away from it. That's substantive. Speaker 2: Once again, I'd like to return to the factors behind the movement from one position to another, which, in a sense, was the essence of your lecture. I want to look at the movement from Periods 2 to Period 3 now. You presented, I think, two reasons for the shift in position there, and I want you to evaluate them. One set of reasons has to do with the frustrations that Du Bois experienced in the NAACP, particularly the hostility to Pan-Africanism and the hostility to his socialist ideas. But a more compelling reason, always, it seemed to me, and, to judge from Dusk of Dawn, it would seem possibly to Du Bois as well, was the economic depression. Herbert Aptheke...: Oh, yes. I mention the depression. It's absolutely true. That is, it's more internal. Speaker 2: [crosstalk]. Herbert Aptheke...: It's more internal. [inaudible]. Speaker 2: The economic depression, it was not really a sense, a movement, that came from these frustrations. Herbert Aptheke...: No. Speaker 2: So he would survive [inaudible]. Herbert Aptheke...: Yes. No, you're quite right, and I emphasize that in the paper. Speaker 2: [inaudible]. Herbert Aptheke...: This is very important and should be elaborated. The depression came first in the South by '27. It came first to the Black people, and it was murder. I lived in the South then. I mean literally murder. People were dying in the street, and there was no provision, no unemployment insurance, no nothing. Even when there was unemployment insurance, it wasn't for Black people. Herbert Aptheke...: So it was awful, and it was a question of survival. For the mass, I mean. It was a question of living, and Du Bois then begins to raise holy hell. He says, "Now you're fighting for riding in a Pullman. You're fighting for playing on a tennis court. You're fighting for getting into a swimming pool. You're fighting for going to the front row of the theater or the loge. What's that got to do with 99% of our people? They're not going to a loge. They're not going to the balcony. They're not going to the orchestra. They're not going to play tennis, and they don't have a tennis racket. They're not riding a Pullman or the train. They're not eating. We've got to stop this concentration on the courts; on the politicians. We've got to get into the streets. We've got to fight on rent, on housing, on living, on jobs, and if we can't do that, we've got to do it ourselves." Herbert Aptheke...: That was his point to the separation. He says, "We're 15 million people. We give a billion dollars a year to our churches. If we can do all that, why can't we move into cooperative farming; cooperative groceries? Why can't we build our own apartment houses; have cooperative housing? Take care of our own people. We're 15 million. We're a nation. Because," he said, "They don't care about us. Nobody cares about us. The New Deal doesn't care..." He wrote a book on the Negro and the New Deal. He wrote it for Alain Locke, the Bronze Booklet series. It was so, so critical, they didn't publish it. I still have it. We will publish it now. Now it is appropriate, but they refused to publish it. They paid him $200 and and they wouldn't publish it. Hasn't been published to this day. Herbert Aptheke...: What was the point of the book? "Positive things in the New Deal, but the New Deal doesn't touch us. It doesn't touch Black people. In fact, it makes things worse. The NRA is making things worse. The AAA is making things worse. The planters are driving us off the soil," as of course they were doing. "But what are we going to do about it? What we have to do about it, we have to meet, we have to discuss, we have to talk. It's not a question of suing in the courts, it's a question of going into the street." Herbert Aptheke...: Of course, this also brought him closer to Marxism because we were in the street. When they took the furniture out for folks, we put it back in. That's what we were doing. We spent half our time moving furniture back in. The cops come out, and then Herb Newton and all the rest were killed. That's why they were killed in the '30s. Du Bois says, "That's where we have to be." That's the basic reason for his being fired. That's what I meant by the economics. I said that, the jobs [inaudible]. Absolutely. In so far as I didn't do it enough, yes, this is the context of that move by the doctor. It is a question of survival. Speaker 2: Now, what is the emergency that moves Du Bois from Position 3 to 4?