Religious Tolerance, Iowa City, Iowa, October 11, 2010

- [Peter Hansen] We welcome you to another lecture in our 27th year of international affairs programming. ICFRC is a community effort and we are encouraged by the continued support of our members. Without your dues and contributions we'd be unable to provide this vital forum. Before we continue I would like to thank the International Peacemaker Program and St. Andrew Presbyterian Church who brought our speaker to Iowa City, and to the University of Iowa's international programs and honors program. Without their support, programs such as these would not be possible. At this point I will call upon Bob David, who is the interim senior pastor at St. Andrew Presbyterian Church who will introduce today's speaker. - [Bob David] Thank you, Peter. It's wonderful to be here today. I'm both honored and delighted to have this opportunity to introduce today's speaker to you. This is Bishop Mano Ramalshah of the Church of Pakistan, and he is traveling throughout the United States right now. He has been in Seattle, and Ohio, then here. He will be in Kansas City after he's in Iowa as part of the International Peacemaker Program of the Presbyterian Church USA. This peacemaker program makes available to congregations and communities individuals from troubled regions of the world who have played prominent roles in seeking to bring peace to those areas. And Bishop Mano is just such an individual. He's recognized both in Pakistan and internationally for his tireless work at fostering peaceful cooperation and understanding among the peoples of the community of Peshawar where he lives among Christians, and among those in the Muslim world, as well as serving the surrounding region which has been some of the most hardest hit by the recent flooding in Pakistan. Peshawar is located in the rugged northwest frontier region of Pakistan immediately bordering Afghanistan and is at the entrance to the Khyber Pass route to Kabul. The Church of Pakistan is an interdenominational church representing Anglican, and Methodist, and Presbyterian, Lutheran, Congregational, and other Protestant denominations. Bishop Mano's leadership in promoting inter-culture and interfaith harmony in community development with ethnic and minority groups is stellar in that area. He has served his organization, his church. They have hospitals. They have schools. And they do a lot with peacemaking among the Islamic neighbors and Taliban neighbors. Bishop Mano is a man of vision and of great peace, and it is with pleasure that I introduce him to you today to this group. - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Friends, good afternoon to you, and I do hope that your lunch would not be spoiled. So without making too much noise, keep at it, and give your ears to me, and not your knives and forks. It's a real pleasure and honor to be here in your midst. I'm not used to these august bodies, but at times you are plunged into these. And I'm very indebted to you, sir, and to your organization for inviting me and inviting all of you for us to spend some time together. The title which has been given to me is rather, as the Americans would call it, rather awesome. Peace Amongst Taliban Neighbors. It's rather, for me, a little bit presumptuous because I don't think I feel confident and competent to be saying precise things on this title, under this title, but I'll do my best. That's the best I can do. And perhaps my biggest qualification is that this is the map of the area which my friend David had just described. You can have a look at it later on, but this is the northwest part of Pakistan. And the yellow zone here is what is federally administered, and that's the heartland of the tribal belt, that's the heartland of Taliban. Perhaps that's even the heartland of al-Qaeda. And I have spent, along with my community and family, the last 21 years in that region. And all the other things that David has said, ignore those. I'm honestly none of those, but a very humble effort to live and be there in spite of all that goes on in that situation. I think in order to even begin to talk about Taliban let's look at who they are. The world Talib-- Taliban is a plural of the word Talib. And Talib is-- We use it in my natural language, Urdu, as well as it's an Arabic word which simply, simply means "a student." And a student with a very deep meaning behind it, a kind of seeker, seeker of knowledge. And Taliban is simply a plural of that word. And I feel at times very sad that such a lovely word is being abused, misused, and misunderstood. I wish that was not the case. But how did they come to be called the Taliban? I think I'll be very blunt here. The simple truth is that powers that be wanted to get rid of the Soviet presence in Afghanistan, which was there for 20 years, and rightly so perhaps. And unfortunately they created this group based upon perhaps the seminarians, the Taliban, and the madrasas, or whatever. But they focused on people who were religiously inclined who had their devotion to faith, and I believe they were injected with this new challenge, and perhaps many a times misguided and misused. In one sense I personally-- Sympathy is a bad word. I don't like sympathy. But I have a lot of empathy and understanding with Taliban because where I live, and have my being, and where I walk and breathe, it's not written on anybody's forehead you are a Taliban. Or he comes and says, "Who are you? I'm a Taliban." We live, 16 million people live in this province of Pakistan. We live as fellow human beings, fellow citizens. If you are a Taliban, maybe you are a true student, a true seeker. But if on the other hand you are the ones who gets used for suicide bombings and et cetera, that is sad, but that's a reality too which we need to face. But I think the very being of the Talibans, the very birth of the Taliban as a group of people, when the world began to know, in a very horrendous way, unfortunately, I think that one needs to go behind it. And also I have spoken to my people day and night. They don't perhaps declare themselves to be Taliban, but we talk about these issues. And some of the grudges, and complaints, and feelings of oppression that some of them feel, in more global terms, I think also very much needs to be heard. What peace can a person like me and my tiny weeny community can ever bring? Hardly any which would matter and which would receive headlines around the world. But we as the church there, as the Christians of that area, we are a tiny community, 100,000 in this region, and right across, even lots of them in the yellow zone, which is, as I say, it's purely tribal belt, our existence is very much over ground. We are not underground, hiding from Taliban or hiding from so and so, and so and so. We live as fellow citizens. And our presence in that situation did not take place because Talibans are there and so we the peacemakers are going to be there. We have been there for nearly 200 years, very humbly, very perhaps insignificantly, but very purposefully as well. Because this is an area which, in my estimation, has been forsaken by the powers down the centuries almost. This is a tribal belt, there are 20+ million tribal people, Pashtun tribe, the wider between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and very proud people. They have a very proud history of community life. But unfortunately as of today we see them purely as terrorists and as gun-wielding people. But on the other hand, kind of "civilized world" I don't think have ever looked into their needs and looked into their difficulties, and that also hurts me. But I am not a politician. I'm not a member of state department. I can't lecture you on policy documents and how to go about it. I can only share with you this afternoon what we are able to do in a very humble way as a tiny, little church, and I feel that it has a message to be identified that if a small group, like a fly on the wall group, they can exist there and build small bridges, or still survive there. We could have been annihilated. Survive there. There must be some reason for that. And I think the reason for that basically is first and foremost, we believe in presence, service, leading to a relationship. I'm one of those, and I often tease my western friends, today if you want to land in this territory as a do-gooder, as an NGO, as a well wisher, as somebody's agent, these people will not land you you even with $2 billion. And that must be understood. I think those who are not from that area. But those of us who are there, we know that through our presence, our service, leads to-- can lead, and in my few instances I'll tell you at the end, can lead to positive, hopeful stories. And that presence, service, and relationship is based, as David has already said, through our-- I use the term diaconia institutions. Service centers as they're called. I forbid the use of term hospitals, and colleges, or things like that, because we are not anybody's-- Government of Pakistan has not said you set up hospitals. These places of service have been there for the last 150+ years with all its pluses and minuses. And the tiny church there must have spent millions, and you just simply multiply 150 years and what this has done. And there's a place there called Bundu. I once very publicly asked the governor of the state. I said that at times Christians are accused of proselytization, and luring, and bribery. I said if there are 10 people converted from this tribe over 150 years and millions of investment perhaps I'll go crazy with joy. I can't count 10, because we are not counting heads, how many Christians. We are serving and cleaning the wounds of those people, not as Taliban, not as al-Qaeda, but as the children of God, as God's people. That is the ultimate motivation. And 96, 97% of people who come there are of Muslim faith. And nobody, none of my staff would ever say, "Show us your identity card "to say you are Taliban, al-Qaeda, or whatever." That's absolutely unthinkable even. Because we are hardly there. What can we do in those places? That's the basis under which we function and operate. And one of my favorite phrases that I express, in a more Christian language the phrase I use is, "Why are you there?" We are trying to reenact God's love as we have experienced to the people of God, to the children of God. I know it's difficult to swallow for people whether a Taliban can be a child of God, or a people of God. For me they are, because they are God's creation. And if they are perhaps doing things which are unpleasant at the moment I think we need to perhaps fully understand why and how. But the real motivation-- And they know that. The real motivation under which we function are literally first I said presence, service, relationship. But for me, as a person of faith, the motivation is not political, social, or do-gooder. Because there are too many do-gooders these days. But for me the motivation is that my community and I are literally pushed ahead by looking at our common humanity, our common God, and our common values. These are the golden principles under which we function. And let me elaborate these a little bit. Our common humanity. It seems the obvious, but it has never been understood as such. The evil of hatred, violence, greed, and exploitation in us has always been prowling amongst us. And as a consequence it has been incessantly and brutally violating God's image in us all. This human reality seems to be so expressive of our present day global scenario of economic, political, and social exploitation, and the might is right policies of certain powerful nations. This is one of the main reasons of the resentment and hatred felt in the poor, and may I say especially Islamic lands. All religions teach about the rights and dignity of human beings. In fact both in the teachings of Jesus and the Quran there is emphatic teaching on the oneness and the equality of all people. Islam uses the term musawah. The most attractive part about Islam and Christianity, in South Asia, that's my territory, has always been this message. And yet even we seem to have desperately failed in it. The religions-- And I'm addressing myself more than anybody else. But if you are religious, religiously orientated or meet someone, tell him that, that this is what I am saying. The religions need to help us understand afresh the nature of our common humanity and to take cognizance of where the political, economic, and social systems of our shared humanity exploit and abuse human situations. The religions need to be both the voice of the oppressed and the conscience of the oppressor. It's the conscience of the oppressor which somehow leaves us by. And perhaps the questions to ask would be what role can the religion play in the creation of a civil society. Religion seems to have put on a back burner because we have a bad history. All our religions we have first killed each other than we have talked about anyone else. And today you go through Europe. God is a laughing stock because I think we have created a very bad history. What are the issues with which the religions must engage in to challenge human divisiveness and promote human understanding? And then how could religions become the conscience of the political and economic powers of the world? And if anybody is interested to talk about it in private with me today I will go through chapter and verse. I testified to the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee in '98 when the freedom of religion bill was going through the congress and asked me what impact, or what has that built up. So that's a different story, but don't ask me a public question. I won't answer. This could be a very simple truth. I'll now move to our common God. This could be-- Oh, I'm slightly ahead, which is wonderful. This could be our common God, the second, or threes that I mentioned. This could be a very simple truth as experienced in the lives of people. And yet what appears to be so transparently obvious has always caused us humans confusion and misunderstanding, often leading to strife and conflict. And here religions need to be thoroughly blamed because of our lack of understanding about our God, I feel. The fact is that we receive our knowledge of God in our own milieus. And I think you can understand what I'm saying here. And we try to live out our relationship with and through him in our own givenness. In my Christian faith I experience my God through the life and teachings of Jesus the Christ and the guidance of the Holy Bible. The Muslim brethren receive their knowledge and understanding of God through the teachings of the Holy Prophet, the Hadid, and the Holy Quran. And yet he that is the God, he remains the same God to both set of believers. We all, therefore, have our glimpse of God. God, if he is God, has to be bigger than all our human understandings and definitions. And yet throughout history we have tried to annihilate one another in the name of religions, even in the very name of God himself. And I very often imagine a boxing ring. We seem to fight for our own gods, and he doesn't need defending. My friends, there can be only one and the same God. And to deny this commonality of God is ultimately to deny God himself. The questions perhaps it does raise, how can we acknowledge the sovereignty of God over us all? A very basic point, but he seems to be not part of the scene anymore in certain situations. Number two, how can we bring together our respective knowledge and experiences of the divine to offer a wider picture of God? And number three, how can we proclaim our common God for peace and justice? Of course if we are okay with these I'm sure it can lead us to some kind of common values. And perhaps, I often, through my experience, feel that to say we have common values become the most difficult issue because we have such crude perceptions of different civilizations, and different religions, for us ever to imagine that can we ever converge over common values. The human values that we get imbibed with through our faith and cultural heritage become an organic and precious part of our lives. These values seem to cover all aspects of our lives, both individually and corporately. They are reflected in spheres of lifestyle, environment, human rights, and justice issues. However the tensions arise, for example, in the way eastern cultures perceive the western attitudes to human sexuality and family values. Very big issue in my country. The obverse is that the westerners often accuse the eastern cultures of primitiveness and crudeness, particularly over the place of women, especially on issues of women and gender oppression in their societies. Similar tensions can also be seen in attitudes towards the environment and economic situations. But the challenge is to delve deeper into it where it touches and challenges the very core of our lives. So perhaps the issue before us is whether we in spite of our differences can still find that convergence point which we could use as a vehicle to meet our common challenges. I tell you, you know it, there are multitudes of those. We could share together the values which would enhance humanity and bring peace and justice into all situations. We need an appreciation that we have a common goal and that by sharing our value systems we might reach our destination, our omega point, the end of the roadmap. Of course our ultimate challenge is also, I believe, to a common mission. By which mission also has become quite a paranoid and dirty word, as if you know mission is only for a certain purpose. Mission by which we should work for the eradication of poverty, disease, illiteracy, AIDS, violence, warfare, and you keep on completing the list. Those are issues which belong to all of us, our humanity. I always keep on telling people here, without exaggeration, the treatment you give and offer your animals is 10 times better than what an average person gets as medical treatment in my country. It's unthinkable, but that's reality. It's still happening because our mission to humanity-- Of course there are wonderful works as well. Malaria eradication, that eradication, now AIDS eradication. Wester powers and western friends are pouring so much money in that, and we so much appreciate that. But I think there are related factors which never bring you that healing which we so desperately need. Such a mission should also work ceaselessly for peace and reconciliation not only for us, but also for the whole human family. These were the threesome. Common humanity, our community humanity, our common God, very difficult to swallow that. I still move amongst my Christian family around the world, and also amongst my very fundamentalist Muslim brothers and sisters. Very difficult to swallow. But those are the fundamentals. If we grasp those I think it can lead to many common things, value, mission, et cetera, et cetera. Let me give you three quick examples to end what little I have said. There was a baptismal service and party in Peshawar a couple of years ago. Somewhere the rumor leaked that these Christians at such occasions, booze and misbehave kind of thing What happens? My dear friends, the Taliban come, literally like sacks, picked up a group of people. I was there within two hours of the incident, and we didn't even know exactly how many are missing. And took them away. And the miracle of miracles happened when true intermediaries and friends, we approached. Within 18 hours they were all back totally unharmed. They recognized that there was no booze going on. I think that was the plus. But that's what they believe in, and that was their way, a very crude way. But within 18 hours, it was a miracle because you go through hell when people get kidnapped. My own predecessor was kidnapped and I know what we went through at that time in our life. Second incident was a place called Bundu. My medical doctor was kidnapped. It had never happened in 150 years of the hospital. We were not hearing everything. On 24th of December 2007 his wife, myself, and one of my staff, we spent half a day with a Taliban commander who was, according to him, a medical doctor. We begged on our knees, "Give us our man. "What wrong have we done?" "We haven't done," he assured us. "We haven't done. "We'll help you to recover him." He understood. He appreciated what this selfless service is all about. But it was a bridge, it was a relationship which they had appreciated that these people have not misbehaved for 150 years. Why should it happen now? In the end, after three weeks, on 2nd of January 2008 we got my doctor back absolutely safe, well, without a scratch, no ransom exchanged. Praise the Lord. Who took him? We still don't know. I think the finger always goes it's Taliban, Taliban, Taliban. In this case, some of us have our own doubts that perhaps it was more complicated than that. They may not have been the people who did it, but they are not saints either. And thirdly, right down in the bottom, which has been the head office of whoever you'd like to share there is another healthcare place. Until the army action two years ago we only sort of whispered about it. But we were told afterwards that the camp next door, the people living next to us, to the hospital, was an al-Qaeda camp. And there have been medic missionary ladies living in that place. There were two Americans until about three years ago who had lived there for 30 years. There are still four European white missionary ladies operating there. No one has ever touched them. And here we'll get cold sweat if we talk about al-Qaeda and Taliban. But perhaps to end it with a most amusing story. This area, Swat, which was also very much in the news because Taliban took hold of this because this is a drone attack area as well. So they moved to this very-- we call it our Pakistan And it was Easter, two Easters ago. The Taliban were in control of that territory. What to do? We want to worship. So my priest, through our contact, my priest and a couple of leaders, locals, there were about 60 Christian families. They went to the Taliban and said, "It's our festival coming. We want to worship." "Of course you must worship. "Where do you want to worship? Which is your place? "Don't tell the police or the army "but we will protect you. "We want you to celebrate your festival." And the thing which brought tears to my eyes was when my priest ran me to tell that. "And if on the day you find "a Christian who doesn't want to attend it, let us know. "We will see to it that..." And these are people who also butcher. I must let me not leave a feeling that all is well and only we misunderstand. What makes them butchers, I think we can look into that in our own ways and understandings. But I feel sad, and broken about the fact that yet again, yet again, faith and religion is being abused, either by Talibans themselves-- Because their motivation is sweat. Of course it is. This area had never seen a suicide bomber until three years ago, and today we are the world's capital. And 3,000 dead. You had 1,300 Americans lost. We have 3,000 in the last three years through suicide bombing. Today if there are 10, 15 dying of a suicide attack we don't even take notice in this region. It has to be 50+ before we say, "Oh yeah, an incident happened." And young people. If you are 25, 30+ you are a geriatric as a suicide bomber. So that is also the reality. And I really shed tears over this. Faith, religion again being abused, on all sides. And the political and economic powers of the world perhaps still remain saintly, that it's nothing to do with them. And my plea to you, my prayer to you would be that let's look at these issues in a more holistic way and let's bring healing and reconciliation. My favorite phrase is, we must smell the sweat, even if they are somebody's enemies, of the enemy. That has to be our ultimate, ultimate destination. We do sweat in my country. I don't know whether you sweat here or not. And sweat is not a good smell. And that is the ultimate destination. Smell the sweat of the enemy and that is the ultimate reconciliation. God bless you, and thank you, and those who wish to leave now, I think it's time to leave. - [Peter Hansen] If the United States and the western powers were to leave Afghanistan do you think that the Taliban and the Karzai regime could resolve and reach some peaceful settlement? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Who am I? Who am I to be advising the United States of America? Those are difficult questions and difficult answers to give. My own hunch is that nothing will happen instantly. It never happens in human society in such places of conflict. I think, as you say, if you leave, and when western powers do leave I think there will be a time of finding new balances, finding new relationships. And this is always the case. It's not only in that situation. They have been resolving their own situations for centuries. They have one of the world's best basic democratic system under the jirga system, those tribal people. My hunch is in due time. They were created, and that creation has proved now a genie is out of the bottle. It has become a curse for the world at large. And it takes its own time for that restoration to take place. You read. I will try to answer if I can. Because you are the judge. - [Peter Hansen] What would be your advice to President Obama-- - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Oh my. - [Peter Hansen] Regarding his target of a July 2011 draw down from Afghanistan. - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Do it yesterday. More and more consensus is building towards that. It's three, four years ago we said our mission in Iraq is completed. The history of colonization, of wars, of all that, we haven't relearned lessons. I can cite you a lot of decolonized countries where the expectation was today we left, tomorrow they must be very civilized, well behaved. And I used to say very bluntly, the psyche of being enslaved or colonized takes generations to recover. That has to be understood very clearly. - [Peter Hansen] You spoke of the grievances of the Taliban. What are those grievances? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] I think partly local, because they have always been an ignored people, that tribe. There is no industry. There is no agriculture. By nature it doesn't happen. They live off heroin. 80% of the heroin we produce. And somehow for the fear that they are not reliable people. For centuries I think government after government have never allowed them to be. And also this division of this tribe between Afghanistan. And the local joke is that the British bureaucrat who drew the line must have had a fight with his wife the previous night. He woke up, "This is Afghanistan. This is P--" And you're screaming here I read in the papers, "Pakistan is not controlling borders. Poorest borders." It is a poorest border, for God's sake. They don't accept the border. Yes, there are check posts, but there are 1001 routes through which they come and go, families exchange, they come and go. Actually interestingly why this is federally administered area, this yellow area here, because this was left as a buffer zone when this was done, artificial division 100 years ago. The law of Pakistan doesn't of operate here. The law of Afghanistan doesn't operate here. And that's how they have lived for centuries. I've just been given a book. Peter, if you can give me that book. It's not a publicity for the book because I met the author just now. But this is a book on imperial fault lines, and the author is here. I don't know if he wants to be identified. It's up to him. But he has a picture here of a church in Peshawar which was built like a mosque. And in that church we have a Bible, All Saints Church Peshawar, Afghanistan. And that is, we are only talking about late 19th century. So that's the-- Sorry, it's a longer answer. Those are the locals. Why there are grievances is, I think, obvious to all of us. There is a very strong feeling within that part of the world, and Pakistan seems to have become the defender of the Islamic faith. And the feeling is the rest is out to decimate and wipe off Islam. And it's a right feeling, wrong feeling. Only they can answer. I can't. But this is a very strong feeling out there. And this is what has made Osama bin Laden the hero of those people. And it started-- It's a thorny subject. Please don't drag me into those. It all started with the whole Palestinian issue. And it multiplied, multiplied, and it goes on. So that's really what it is. - [Peter Hansen] I have to do a little paraphrasing here. What do you as a minister and teacher do to combat the influence of the madrasas by teaching young boys to become suicide bombers? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] I can't do anything as a person. I have a group called-- two groups. National World Council of Religions where the Islamic leadership represents 80% of the madrasas. And it's a constant attempt that they are modified. And they are being assured that they are being modified. But again, it's not happening as quickly and as well as we expect. Although they are introducing more and more of now secular curricula into those madrasas. But I think added to that would be the group which I really enjoyed the most in this area. We talked amongst ourselves. Setting up interfaith, inter-religious groups, especially Christian/Muslims or Christian/Muslim/Jews has become fashionable as well. So I didn't want to use any of those names. So we struggled to find a name which might be something really attractive. So we ended up with the name Faith Friends. You are a Muslim, you are a person of faith. I'm a Christian, I'm a person of faith. Let that faith be the magnet and the bond. If we only meet as Muslims and Christians, which is almost everywhere in the world, no people try. We come with a lot of baggage. A lot of baggage. And that kind of thing, of course with that group one of the things, the chief mufti, which is like an archbishop of the whole province is our chairperson. And there are other very committed pe-- But the challenge still remains we are tea and sympathy amongst ourselves. We have become very good personal friends. But even they dare not go to the Talibans and say, "What are you up to?" That is a very political and military game. It's not only religious. Religion is something which is being used, as I said earlier. - [Peter Hansen] The book he alluded to, the author is Jeff Cox, who was here earlier but I think he had to leave to teach a class. He's a history professor at the University of Iowa. Help us understand why the Taliban destroy the schools where seekers of knowledge attend? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Yeah, they destroy the girl's schools, not all schools. And that's, again, their cultural inhibition. They don't feel comfortable with it. None of us endorse it. An average Muslim would not endorse it. But that's where they are at the moment. And partly, I think, I always feel that maybe to gain more attention, at times they'll start hitting the minorities when they are really angry with somebody sneezing here. And the same way maybe to draw attention. They do that for girls. But they basically don't want girls to be educated, period. - [Peter Hansen] The Holy Prophet can be quoted in favor of being very hard and intolerant when dealing with other's outside the Muslim faith. How do peace-loving Muslims deal with these severe and intolerant parts of their holy scripture? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Fair question. And I think we often quote that, people quote that. I think only a Muslim should answer that. I am not really competent to answer that, and I should not answer that. - [Peter Hansen] You may have answered this earlier. We read from time to time of attacks on Shiites and Christians in Pakistan. How common is this, and is it a recognized threat to your community? What factors seem to give rise to these attacks? - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] The attack to the Shiites does surprise us, and pains us. But my only parallel that I see is in my own Christian faith the whole history of Northern Ireland. I used to say how can they smell each other, that's he's a Catholic, or he's a Protestant. And we have lived with that in Britain for years. But my own community, yes, it's bottom of the pile. Off and on. As I say, when somebody sneezes here, like Danish cartoons. My own family was-- my daughter was traumatized. We were brutally attacked over the anger over Danish cartoons. But again, that's a long answer, I don't want to go. The Christian of Pakistan was the first of its kind on the identity of religion. But then, perhaps in our conversation with our Ugandan friend we'll talk about it. For me my life has taught me that the ultimate thing which define our behaviors is minority, majority. Minority, majority. Majority, minority. Except for few exceptions. Very rare exceptions like perhaps the South African situation of Apartheid. But otherwise it's always majority will have one mindset, religious, cultural, ethnic, whatever, racial, and the minority will have. And I can quote you chapter and verses how one would behave. And I have personal stories. One would behave in a majority, one would behave in a minority. And perhaps if I have two minutes I'll illustrate one quick point. In West London for four and a half years I'm just cutting it through it. Four and a half years. My church room, church vestry part of the consecrated building was used as Quranic school. That was my reception in a majority situation. I was vicar rector in West London. That, in real terms, was a Quranic madrasa, the thing which scares us to death. I used to commute back to Pakistan for a little while. I come out of my office. I see three Muslims praying on a footpath the afternoon Asr prayers. I asked the gatekeeper. That's before 9/11. Today there's a whole lot of intelligence and police. I said who were they, were they our staff, or were they outsiders? The answer came, "Sir, outsiders." I said, "Don't you see the mosque out there?" And I said, "If it happens again "I will sack you on the spot." I was bleeding. I was bleeding in my heart and in my soul. You are the same person who for four long years opened your consecrated church building to these people. And they didn't ask you for a carpet, or didn't ask you to worship in the church, or room, or anything. Worshiping for God's sake on a footpath. And you can't tolerate that? Minority. Perhaps if that had happened for another month, and what any mind had declared it to be a mosque. We had to leave, and they had to come in. So this is why never generalize. What I do here, it's different to what I-- And I wish there is a common ground in this minority, majority issue. We have our sufferings. We are bottom of the pile. Job market is closed. Every now and then they burn either a village over a false accusation, burning of Holy Quran, or even now this so-and-so didn't burn it in Florida. But they still burnt our Bible. They attached three churches in my own area, in this area. One church was attacked a year ago. They had urinated and excreted specifically on the Bible in a church. But that doesn't stop us being who we are. And that, again, they do okay, fair enough. But again, this minority, majority relationships. That defines our behavior and that, for me, is the ultimate equation which defines our behavior pattern. - [Peter Hansen] Looking at the clock I think we have to end it here. On behalf of the Iowa City Foreign Relations Council I want to thank Bishop Mano Rumalshah for sharing with us his presentation on religious tolerance. I also wish to again thank the International Peacemaker Program, St. Andrew Presbyterian Church, and the University of Iowa's international programs and honors program for making this forum possible. As a modest token of our appreciation, Bishop Rumalshah, I wish to present you with the coveted Iowa City Foreign Relations Council mug suitable for coffee, tea, or other beverages. - [Bishop Mano Ramalshah] Wonderful. For tea. No coffee this. I'm a tea drinker. Thank you. - [Peter Hansen] If you have any questions about joining the Iowa City Foreign Relations Council please call our office at 335-0351. To our television and radio audiences, if you enjoyed listening to this program please consider supporting the council's work by sending a contribution to ICFRC, 1111 University Capitol Center, Iowa City, Iowa 52242. Thank you and we are adjourned. And members please return your name tags.