Carolyn Cole Gage interview about journalism career, Iowa City, Iowa, March 4, 1998

Section 1: A: I think it is really neat. I agree. I noticed you have Al Pindar, who is just a remarkable journalist. The Morris family will probably be there. Ed Sidey's family is four generations involved. Kenny and Mary Louise Robinson. As I was telling Jamie, a lot of the fun has gone out newspaper. It is kind of a hard-scrabble business now. But those people have some remarkable stories. Iowa is very fortunate to have such a freedom of information. It is such a strong, strong one. And it is a constant fight for people in small towns, or big towns, to keep that going. Q: I am going to try to ask the majority of the questions, but other people are free to pipe up. Some of the stuff you may have already told me, but you haven't told the class. First of all, can you tell us a little bit about your educational background and where you grew up? A: I was born in Dallas, Texas and grew up Atlantic [Iowa] and Des Moines and Dallas. My mother's heart never left the South. I graduated from Atlantic High School and I had a very fine English teacher, journalism teacher. Every time I see her, I want to yell at her for getting me into this business. But I wanted to be in engineering. I came from a family that said, "It doesn't make any difference if you fail. At least you tried." So, I went off to Iowa State in civil engineering. There were two women in six hundred kids. I certainly was not a top student after a year and a half. The other woman did graduate with honors. So I have always had a very, very deep interest in building construction, which is a little odd. But, I married while still in school at Iowa State and my former husband was in the Marine Corps and then came back and went to graduate school. I finished up and the only thing left was science and humanities. I was interested in English. I grew up in a family that took four daily newspapers. And sometimes...and then, my mother would have the New York Times sent in. So we grew up as readers which I think is very important. There were lots of different books in our house. We were the only family in town, my sister and I discuss this, that were allowed to take out any number of books from the library a week that we wanted to. I think one time we returned thirty-two, which meant, for little kids, hauling them up the steps. So I grew up like that. Then I went off and then I married and my husband got his doctorate and we moved to a small town. He didn't want to teach. And I went over the end of the earth. Let me tell you, anything below Highway 34 in those days, I thought was absolutely the end of the earth. And, very unfamiliar with small towns. But I happened to adore it. I loved it. My marriage dissolved, so I had inherited some money from my father, and you will hear this story, I thought, "My God. I can run a better paper than the guy doing it." It was up for sale. So, I talked to the banker who never bothered to ask if I had any credentials in journalism. He just gave me the loan. I thought, "Nice guy." So, anyway, my father said, "If you want to do it, go ahead." So, I signed my inheritance, so to speak, into this. I had only been in the office twice, but they also irritated me because they did not put an ad in twice. Two weeks in a row they missed the ad. You don't know how irritating that is until you are the mother of a band student. I was well aware of where I was headed. I actually learned to develop film under the red light in the darkroom. My first papers were pretty pathetic. One gal stayed with me. If you are from rural areas, you will understand this. I thought, I will be professional so I am going to call these people, these advertisers, saying, "May I come see you?" So, she made appointments and she dialed one in Clarinda. This woman said, "Alice Chalmers." She said, "Oh, I am sorry, Mrs. Chalmers. I have the wrong number." And hung up. See, only rural people understand that one. So, it was a learning experience. But the great thing about newspapers is, I had great mentors. Al Pindar. Kenny Robinson when he wasn't yelling at me. I am sure Dick Knolls may be somewhere on your list. He certainly wasn't yelling at me. And so we learned a lot from each other. It was terrific because I would ask them a question and they would help with it. And I learned a lot. And I also had a...I had a father. I came from a family of attorneys who never represented anybody in the family. So, I had a grounding in the law. And my dad said, "If you want to do it, give it a try." So, I was able to. So, I have learned on the spot. I don't bow to any god of journalism, and so, therefore, I do my own thing. So, I am not sure about how...the AP [Associated Press] style is, "Is that the way we are supposed to do it? OK." But sometimes, I will just do what I feel. I try to write in a conversational story. Actually, I do what I damn well please as long as people keep subscribing. And the problem now is, to be serious, is more people are dying than are being born, so I am losing subscribers. But, that is kind of my background. And it is interesting, because my brother and my sister have very different careers and we each enjoy what we do. I love this town. It is the craziest town in the world. They are opinionated, strong minded people. We could never have a public hanging because we couldn't agree on whom to lynch. It is just terrible. So, it makes it interesting. Giles Fowler, who is a professor at Iowa State, came down and spent the night with us and went to a city council meeting. It reminded him a lot of New England. People in the audience will speak up and start arguing with the mayor or the city council. So, it is interesting. If you are bored and live in a small town, that is very sad. But you also have to do things back to pay for life for volunteering. So, I enjoy it. I have had chances to sell and then I just can't bring myself, because I don't know what I would do. I would love to teach community journalism because I would like to teach the way it should be taught. But I think, if you want a career that really makes a difference, forget broadcast, forget TV, forget public relations, go into community journalism because you could make a difference there. You can help pass the bond issue. You can help with the fund drive for the young man that was severely injured. You can teach people that the school board should have open proceedings and not try to hide things. You can learn to defend the small. And you take on the mighty. The bank that we had never printed a statement of condition. I was the only paper in the state whose hometown bank did not put a statement of condition in. But I had a discussion with him on someone that the school expelled when he claimed they committed a crime and I didn't think so. And so, he just pulled any advertising from me. But, fortunately, I could get along. Nowadays, I don't know if I could be as patriotic about my feelings. But, anyway, that is where it is at. But I wanted to, before I was fifty, to build a bridge. And go skinny dipping. And I never did either. But, someday, I am going to learn how to build a bridge. I would like to go back to school and learn that. But I probably won't ever do that. Q: Why not? Section 1: A: I think it is really neat. I agree. I noticed you have Al Pindar, who is just a remarkable journalist. The Morris family will probably be there. Ed Sidey's family is four generations involved. Kenny and Mary Louise Robinson. As I was telling Jamie, a lot of the fun has gone out newspaper. It is kind of a hard-scrabble business now. But those people have some remarkable stories. Iowa is very fortunate to have such a freedom of information. It is such a strong, strong one. And it is a constant fight for people in small towns, or big towns, to keep that going. Q: I am going to try to ask the majority of the questions, but other people are free to pipe up. Some of the stuff you may have already told me, but you haven't told the class. First of all, can you tell us a little bit about your educational background and where you grew up? A: I was born in Dallas, Texas and grew up Atlantic [Iowa] and Des Moines and Dallas. My mother's heart never left the South. I graduated from Atlantic High School and I had a very fine English teacher, journalism teacher. Every time I see her, I want to yell at her for getting me into this business. But I wanted to be in engineering. I came from a family that said, "It doesn't make any difference if you fail. At least you tried." So, I went off to Iowa State in civil engineering. There were two women in six hundred kids. I certainly was not a top student after a year and a half. The other woman did graduate with honors. So I have always had a very, very deep interest in building construction, which is a little odd. But, I married while still in school at Iowa State and my former husband was in the Marine Corps and then came back and went to graduate school. I finished up and the only thing left was science and humanities. I was interested in English. I grew up in a family that took four daily newspapers. And sometimes...and then, my mother would have the New York Times sent in. So we grew up as readers which I think is very important. There were lots of different books in our house. We were the only family in town, my sister and I discuss this, that were allowed to take out any number of books from the library a week that we wanted to. I think one time we returned thirty-two, which meant, for little kids, hauling them up the steps. So I grew up like that. Then I went off and then I married and my husband got his doctorate and we moved to a small town. He didn't want to teach. And I went over the end of the earth. Let me tell you, anything below Highway 34 in those days, I thought was absolutely the end of the earth. And, very unfamiliar with small towns. But I happened to adore it. I loved it. My marriage dissolved, so I had inherited some money from my father, and you will hear this story, I thought, "My God. I can run a better paper than the guy doing it." It was up for sale. So, I talked to the banker who never bothered to ask if I had any credentials in journalism. He just gave me the loan. I thought, "Nice guy." So, anyway, my father said, "If you want to do it, go ahead." So, I signed my inheritance, so to speak, into this. I had only been in the office twice, but they also irritated me because they did not put an ad in twice. Two weeks in a row they missed the ad. You don't know how irritating that is until you are the mother of a band student. I was well aware of where I was headed. I actually learned to develop film under the red light in the darkroom. My first papers were pretty pathetic. One gal stayed with me. If you are from rural areas, you will understand this. I thought, I will be professional so I am going to call these people, these advertisers, saying, "May I come see you?" So, she made appointments and she dialed one in Clarinda. This woman said, "Alice Chalmers." She said, "Oh, I am sorry, Mrs. Chalmers. I have the wrong number." And hung up. See, only rural people understand that one. So, it was a learning experience. But the great thing about newspapers is, I had great mentors. Al Pindar. Kenny Robinson when he wasn't yelling at me. I am sure Dick Knolls may be somewhere on your list. He certainly wasn't yelling at me. And so we learned a lot from each other. It was terrific because I would ask them a question and they would help with it. And I learned a lot. And I also had a...I had a father. I came from a family of attorneys who never represented anybody in the family. So, I had a grounding in the law. And my dad said, "If you want to do it, give it a try." So, I was able to. So, I have learned on the spot. I don't bow to any god of journalism, and so, therefore, I do my own thing. So, I am not sure about how...the AP [Associated Press] style is, "Is that the way we are supposed to do it? OK." But sometimes, I will just do what I feel. I try to write in a conversational story. Actually, I do what I damn well please as long as people keep subscribing. And the problem now is, to be serious, is more people are dying than are being born, so I am losing subscribers. But, that is kind of my background. And it is interesting, because my brother and my sister have very different careers and we each enjoy what we do. I love this town. It is the craziest town in the world. They are opinionated, strong minded people. We could never have a public hanging because we couldn't agree on whom to lynch. It is just terrible. So, it makes it interesting. Giles Fowler, who is a professor at Iowa State, came down and spent the night with us and went to a city council meeting. It reminded him a lot of New England. People in the audience will speak up and start arguing with the mayor or the city council. So, it is interesting. If you are bored and live in a small town, that is very sad. But you also have to do things back to pay for life for volunteering. So, I enjoy it. I have had chances to sell and then I just can't bring myself, because I don't know what I would do. I would love to teach community journalism because I would like to teach the way it should be taught. But I think, if you want a career that really makes a difference, forget broadcast, forget TV, forget public relations, go into community journalism because you could make a difference there. You can help pass the bond issue. You can help with the fund drive for the young man that was severely injured. You can teach people that the school board should have open proceedings and not try to hide things. You can learn to defend the small. And you take on the mighty. The bank that we had never printed a statement of condition. I was the only paper in the state whose hometown bank did not put a statement of condition in. But I had a discussion with him on someone that the school expelled when he claimed they committed a crime and I didn't think so. And so, he just pulled any advertising from me. But, fortunately, I could get along. Nowadays, I don't know if I could be as patriotic about my feelings. But, anyway, that is where it is at. But I wanted to, before I was fifty, to build a bridge. And go skinny dipping. And I never did either. But, someday, I am going to learn how to build a bridge. I would like to go back to school and learn that. But I probably won't ever do that. Q: Why not? A: Because I am too inured of where I am and, besides, I don't think I could study. -- <br><br> Section 2: Q: What advice were you given when you first got into the newspaper business from others in the field, from your family? A: Well, I think it probably came from my father and my mother. They said, "You may be smarter. You may be more intelligent. You may be better looking. You may be wealthier. But you are no better than everybody." And I think that has been something through all our lives. So, I have learned that you can never be condescending when you talk to somebody in the professional journalism beat. There is no reason. Whether it is the man on the street. We mailed all our papers. We hand-delivered one to the local drunk who would drive by on the corner. We would run out because we were afraid he would fall on the sidewalk and sue us. But, I mean, he was still a valued customer. And I think that is it. And I think the payback is that a lot of people come up to me and ask me to do things, or try to help them, which I do. And I think that is the best. And I think all community journalists really feel at heart that they are trying to do the best they can. Q: Tell us a little bit about the working conditions when you first started compared to now. What you pay your employees. A: I pay over the minimum wage. Not much, but I do. But they have freedom to come and go evidently, which I didn't quite understand. Then, I do give bonuses. Pretty handsome bonuses at the end of the year if it looks like a good year. The only problem with that is they expect it every year, so you better come up with the money. But, I have a old building, it is pre-1900, that we have had to side. I am sure people who are architectural purists would not like it resided. So we have that. But the biggest thing is the reduction. We would have needed, probably, when we started, with the darkroom, a room twice this size. With computers, the equipment has become so much smaller. With the scanners, you can do away with the darkroom. And I know something lives there anyway' I can hear it breathe when I am in there. But I think that is the biggest...and the small newspapers, I happened to be telling Jamie, it was the December of '87, about the 25th of December - I usually work on Christmas Day because it is quiet there - I thought, "Oh, I have got to do something with the money." So, I contracted to buy a computer system. They were just coming in. Macs [Macintosh computers] I had never heard of them, but they were coming into their own. Well, we got it delivered January 2nd. I mean, I paid for it. And January 3rd, our other typesetting equipment blew. So, we learned on the go. And ever since then, it is like everything else in life, we never have been trained. I would love to learn how to do ?? express out of the book, but have just never had time to do it. So, I think that's the biggest, probably the biggest changes. The people who are coming out now are so computer literate. And I have...one of my high school coaches is a computer guru and has gotten our school very involved in computers, so he does my program for me. I just call the school and say, "Help." They give him the message. He comes down on his break and fixes my computers. Except he had his hip operated on Monday, so we have to take the computers to him. But I think that is the probably the biggest. Q: What are your hours and what are your employees' hours? A: My hours are such that neither of my daughters want the paper. I work eight to five and one year I worked eighty-eight days straight. At least a minimum of six hours. Now, I have someone who is really terrific. If you only want an eight to five job, then forget journalism. You will never make it. You have to be a dedicated person. But I work eight to five. I have the ability to take off. And then, I will work either Saturday or Sunday, one of the days, about six hours. But you can also get a lot done when there is nobody around. That is what makes it so nice. You don't have anybody bothering you. And my employees work eight to five and, if there is an emergency, they will stay. I have had sometimes when they have had to and they have been terrific about it. They are very understanding. New employees have to learn that. You have to kind of float with your hours. You can't take a lunch break if there is a fire in town and you have to take a picture. Or if the city council has done something, you have got to get out and find out what the story is. But we have a rule: we don't care when you die, but don't let your funeral be on Monday or Tuesday. And unfortunately, that just makes life hell. And it is really tough because you have all these things you can't do. And we just hate holidays that fall on Monday because I have to work and we still have to get the paper out. I don't like a delayed paper. It makes it too tough. -- <br><br> Section 3: Q: You have mentioned before that you get along really good with your neighboring newspapers. What is the competition like between neighboring newspapers? A: Pretty tough. Pretty tough. At one time, I had five "shoppers" in my area. But they have kind of...I think there is one that comes. Well, two now, but they are not really competitive that much. Q: How do you deal with that? A: You cannot. I believe you have to be very honorable, so I don't do anything. You just say you have a product to sell. These "shoppers" don't print your child's engagement picture, if you want details. And the business people are getting very savvy. Our problem is sometimes from radio, but I think we are still working around that. We have some very good radio stations in our market. Q: How are you working around that? Would you talk a little bit about competition and how it has changed over the years? A: I think in locally owned papers, there isn't the cutthroat competition that you get in your chains. You work for Lee Enterprises or you work for Smith newspapers, you have goals you have to hit every year. Local newspaper owners are pretty well aware of what the economic situation there. There is nobody that is sitting in Kentucky telling you, "We know you should sell ten more percent." And, actually, it is amazing, but as far as competition, we share ads. We will do an ad and we will share an ad. We will just call and they will say, "Yes, you can run it. Get it from the Red Oak Express." And they will say, "Yes, you can run it. Get it from the Villisca Review." And the same thing with photos because people can't be everywhere. I do sports photos and then sometimes we will share them. I make sure of what ones they stay away from because I want my first choice, but other than that, it is not a problem. And so, yes, it is competitive. But, you know, we are kind of the "Auntie Mame" of newspapers. And so, we can do our thing and, I think, by that way, we got our own niche because we don't follow the straight and narrow. I will tell you the two times I have gotten in trouble. One time, it was the week before President Clinton's first election. It was Tuesday night and I was bored and I didn't know what to write about, so I bannered the top of the paper that, if Clinton was elected, I would not raise my subscription rates. I lost one more than I gained in subscribers. And one minister's wife put it in Christian terms like I was a bad Christian. But that got a lot of publicity. That's how you do things. But I had no idea what that would do. And that was the type of thing. People remembered that, so we could sell ads that week because people would remember these types of things. We had a "Whine, Women and Song" and that is why we had a contest where whoever sent in the most songs that had women's names in them would win. We give away a hundred dollars, so we make it worth it. Other newspapers will pick it up. Other radio stations. They picked up the Clinton one but good in Omaha. Big Eddy or Fat Eddy or somebody in Omaha subscribed to our paper for six months, which is a subscription I, obviously, never would have gotten otherwise. So, that is kind of the way it is. It is tough. We have businesses closing and it's much more of a problem than when you talk competitors. -- <br><br> Section 4: Q: A couple of laundry items. Your circulation? Size of the city? Size of the county? A: My circulation is thirteen fifty. That is 1350. The size of my community is 1302. And I believe Red Oak [Iowa] has 10,000 people, I think. No, that can't be right. It is 8,000. Q: How large is your staff? A: The problem is, I am trying to hire people full time, but they don't seem to want to work in this day and age. I have one full time, one three day a week, and one two day a week, and another three day a week. I would love to have full time people, but for some reason, they don't want to work for full time. And, if they did, they might go to a factory. So, it is hard. The continuity - you really need full time people. That is why I have got to find another full time person. Q: Are they all editorials (??)? A: No. We do everything. We have one that is a pretty good janitor. You fill in and that is the nice thing about small papers. And that is what you would get at Red Oak. I handle the bookkeeping, obviously, and I do the majority of the writing and editing and that type of thing. But they do everything else. You get to do everything. You take pictures. You develop pictures. Do ads. We have a gal that is terrific on designing the ads and selling them. That is all she wants to do, but I am around selling more than just designing. You all have to get together and learn how to do it. The scanning photos, which is a great thing now, scanning drawings and clip art, there is only one that can do that besides myself. The others don't seem interested. Q: Are they all women? A: You bet. I am serious in a way. I look for women, if you want to know. I have three requirements. They have to have a sense of humor. They have to have the ability to keep their mouth closed because people say things that you cannot believe and they want me as a confidant. And they have to be willing to work. I did have a man, but he is gone. [laughs] Q: This is what we want to know. Let's hear it. A: He had worked in a newspaper and had retired and I think he felt that he knew more about journalism, and he did. But he didn't know about working with people. And what would sell. So that was it. And my biggest problem is that I believe in people - saying, "Well, I was sick that day so I couldn't work." But when they are sick that day and seen in a town twelve miles away shopping, I don't take to it kindly. Very unkindly. And I have had young men write sports for me. So, that's no problem. As I was telling Jamie, we are a town that is run by women basically, so, there is not a problem with sexual stereotyping. But at one time, ten years ago, the mayor was a woman, the city clerk was a woman, the Presbyterian minister was a woman, the pharmacist was a woman, and the top insurance agent in our community was a woman. It is town where, this is a very strange thing and I was surprised when I started reading it, divorce was very common starting in the 1900s. It is really kind of amazing. I always call Red Oak the grande dame and Stanton, the other community, is the proper cousin. We are the relative you never talk about and keep in the attic because people just feel that way about our community. Which you can play up and use to sell. Q: How? A: OK, show and tell folks. I had formed one marching group, but I got bored and we are going to resurrect them. This is the Southwest Iowa All-Girl Marching Drill Team. Now, I don't know how many of you are from Iowa. But it was "twelve little pinkies in a row." "We'll be bacon before we're done. We are looking for the great big boar" is what it was. But I wonder how many of you Iowans will recognize the person in front of there who agreed to be our poster boy. That is the governor of Iowa. So, he just loved us. Those are hats that are pig hats and you put a balloon in. Well, we have gotten publicity all over the place. -- <br><br> Section 5: A: ..then, how many have you heard of the axe murders in Villisca? Some of you have, haven't you? Q: I have shared a little bit with the class. A: 1912, eight people were killed with an axe in June. The house was twenty feet away from another house and no one heard anything. These were all killed. It is always, "Who did it?" It was controversial. I brought you some stories to share. It is still controversial. Even seventy-five years later, in 1987, we were approached by...well, Der Spiegel does a feature about every eight years. Then, we got a call from the Star or something and they wanted to do something. So, the mayor and I and the city clerk decided we had better do something. So, we started an observance of the Villisca axe murder. When you get into the fact that eight people are hacked to death, no one heard anything, they didn't move in their beds particularly. It ruined the career of a man, F. F. Jones, who was a state senator and on his way to becoming the governor of Iowa, it ruined him because they thought he did it. There was a perverted little evangelist wandering around who was a convicted peeping Tom, went to South Dakota, wrote back to Omaha in an ad and wanted a women to be his typist, and she wrote and said, and he wrote back and said, "Fine. But, you have to take the test in the nude." Which isn't really normal in 1912, so he was hospitalized. All these things. There were people they tried to railroad. It was divisive and that is why people think our town is a little strange. In '87, it was still divisive. There is a fellow called Chuck Oppenberger (??) that works for the Des Moines Register and he backed us and he helped support us when we did this. I had to print letters in the paper taking me to task for doing this. They weren't kind. There was an anonymous letter in the Des Moines Register, I found out it was anonymous when I tried call, that took me to task. It showed up in the Star and the only correct thing in it was the spelling of my name. People said, "Let it go." I said, "It is history. You can't change it. It happened. We have to recognize it." And I think the thing the community needs a gold medal for is they never found someone to railroad. There were always good-thinking people who said, "Say, we can't just write someone off." We still have the axe. I was going to bring the axe tonight, but I didn't really want to. One of my friends has it. So, here is the story. This tells the story. It made the New York Times. The Chicago paper sent out people. It was the largest unsolved murder in Iowa and the Midwest, I think. When Algona had a terrible rampage about eight years ago and a man killed a whole family. I remember that. But Time Magazine said, "Unlike Villisca, which never came to terms with it." Well, I was cross and Ed Sidey's brother worked for the Time Magazine, but unfortunately, he had retired by then. So, anyway, now what are we going to do? Mary Brooke and I decided we had to do something to make this palatable. Because this is something that is fascinating when you find out about it. There was a woman that supposedly saw someone leave the house, but she was entertaining a man, not her husband, in a ditch nearby, so they couldn't use her name. And I can't say too much about it, because her daughter and his daughter-in-law are still alive. The town was fighting over lighting, so people were cutting the wires and the lights went out and this was night when there were no lights. So, what do you do? A friend of our came up with idea. We adopted a pig and we called it Willard, with the premise, and we wrote Willard Scott and said, "If you don't show our t-shirt on TV, we will butcher the hog." So, here are our t-shirts. Then we had one little pig, which got to be tame. I took it around and I took it to the school where it could get some information on the education system. I took it to the R. G. Dickinson's stock market in Red Oak and he kind of leaned in the chair and the guy took...this is a picture, every week, you do. He went over to the medical clinic and he got his blood pressure tested. We brought him up to Des Moines to one of the radio stations. He oinks, he was tame. He oinked. And he went out to Camp Dodge and was interviewed by the general. People went along with it. It was great. It was just stupid little things that we got. So, here we had, "Say, Willard." Of course, Willard Scott did show this on TV. What I didn't know was that people were going around having buttons and selling them under the counter saying, "Serve Willard." But, Willard and the mayor and I went to the county fair in Red Oak as a pen of three and we got a red ribbon. We were a little hurt about that. But, these are the type of things you do. And we can do it. I am not sure the Orange County Register can do it unless you have one person that is a flake there. But, you know, we are all too pompous in this world. If you give these people a little fun, we really had some good times. This marching group, we were asked to go to the state fair, but we decided we couldn't make the whole route. But it was a great group. The Presbyterian minister was our head, here, and she finally said to me, I heard her mumble, "It is just like church. Nobody is listening to me." All these women talking. But we were pretty outstanding. These are the things we have done. And, each year, for Heritage Days, we have had our...this is our t-shirt from '93. Do you recognize American Gothic? And then, when RAGBRAI [the cross-Iowa bicycle tour] came by, Chuck said this was a really good thing. This etching was done by the Methodist minister. That brings people. When they see people come into town. We have a "hysterical walk," not a history walk, but a "hysterical walk," because it tells some of the tales. And these towns are just full of these tales. They are really great. They pertain to history. We had people...we had military history. Very, very famous. Have any of you had any World War II history? At Kasserine Pass, we had seven people, seven men, that were captured and all seven returned from prisoner of war camps, which is unusual. Our men participated in the Mexican border war. They participated in...do you know what the Cow War is? Have any of you ever heard of the Cow War in Iowa? Well, the farmers up north in Iowa, by Fort Dodge, would not let their cows be vaccinated. So, the National Guard had to go up there to do this. They thought it was something evil. So, we had this. We are also the sight of the only Pulitzer Prizing-winning photo in Iowa. Does anybody know that? The Omaha World-Herald did a wonderful, wonderful, about six or eight page story on it, but I had dealt with the guy so I got out my information and printed it a little before them. Have any of you ever recognized that? There are no faces. That was what was so unusual. Bob Moore, this is daughter and this is his wife and this is a nephew. This was a 1943 Pulitzer Prize photo. I have the article here that goes with it. It was a homecoming [from World War II, and because of no faces, was considered the "everyman's homecoming."] What it is, the gentleman that took it, I think it was from the Omaha Bee, this was not his choice of shots. The first shot, the camera malfunctioned, so he got this. What is amazing if you study your Pulitzer Prize photos, I don't know if you have any photography, it repeats every twenty years. Well, I think it was a little more than twenty years later, it was the Vietnam veterans coming home from the war and the children running across the tarmac, jumping. So, that is just right on. Now, we hope we don't have something like this in Iraq or something. I am going to make this into postcards because I own it. The rights. Actually, it is public domain, I am sure. But this is something. It is just a simple thing. And our depot had to be torn down because the termites got to it. We tried to save it. But, I will tell you, those old termites were dedicated males. They just chopped through that thing fast. Is there anything else? And, by the way, I am happily married to a wonderful man who puts up with me. Q: You mentioned a lot of the fun about journalism in a lot of these stories. Can you tell us about one or two stories that really changed the course of history in your town? Or really changed something? What is a memorable story for you? A serious story? A: I think our dealing with these axe murders. There is a documentary that, I think, will be finished this next year called "Villisca." It is a sociological look at the town and how it affected people. That is probably the most dramatic. I had friends that would come in and just dress me down royally. But, I said, "You can't hide it. It happened." We had other people that said, "So-and-so did it." I don't know if we changed history. I think one thing we probably did, our school board about twelve years ago, and if you look from a small town, you understand how important schools are and their economic situation is pretty perilous, and they have become a very strong town because they were very wise in how they spent money. They invested in computers. Our kids get computers in kindergarten and they start working on them. I can't say...maybe that is true in all the schools, but at one time, it was not. So, they are computer literate very young. I guess the other thing my family told me, "You can think globally, but act locally." You have to deal with things in your town. We went for bond issues for a new school and that passed. There really...it is difficult to save anything. We don't really have any ground-breaking things that happen. But it is day-to-day life. You have no anonymity in a small town, so your life had better be fairly above board if you are a journalist because otherwise they won't trust you. And I think that is good for a lot of things. -- <br><br> Section 6: A: ...if you want one moment that would define community journalism, it is not any big moment. It was a hot August day about eight years ago. It was one of those warm mornings. You have the door open in the small office and you know it is going to be hot, but it is just kind of pleasant to have it. And we were kind of semi-dozing thinking about what we would do about next week's news. And the phone rang. It was Michael. He said, "Mrs. Gage." I said, "Yes." "This is Michael." I said, "Yeah." He said, "We dug a really big hole. Would you come to take a picture? I just know you want to see it." I thought, "Oh, God." I said, "Well, thank you, Michael. I will see if I am busy." But then I got to thinking. "Why not?" I went up and I got six little muddy boys who had dug a big hole in this backyard and whose mother did not know they had dug a hole there around us with their shovels. They were just as happy...they were just smiling. To me, that was important because that is not going to be any AFL-CIO fight someplace. It is small town journalism. And when you look in your papers, there are things that are just about as stupid. I try to avoid taking the tomato that looks like President Clinton picture or the biggest sweet potato. But that defines what small town journalism is because you are dealing with people and that's what you can't forget. Q: What did the parents say when they found the hole? A: Roxanne, this friend of mine, just laughed. I knew she wouldn't mind. It is still there. She told the kids they had to...but they never did anything. They were always doing things like that. They became the Third Avenue Gang. Eight little boys. They are getting now old, but they used to be in all the parades and everything. Q: Along opposite lines, was there ever a time when you wanted to cover something, but you didn't because it was a small town? A: No. Never. I grew up in a community where my family was talked about because I found out later, we were a little strange. But, no, I had never had to back down and I don't think I would. Q: Why not? A: I don't think it is morally right. And I told Jamie that I had told my daughters that if they did anything wrong, their names would go on the front page if they were charged. I also did the same thing my father did. I contacted the local police, the county sheriff's department, and the highway patrol, and said, "If you ever see my kids doing anything, you call me." Because I said to my daughters, "Unfortunately, you have to be purer than Caesar's wife." I think you have to do that. You cannot hide. I had a young man that worked for me. Did a terrific job. Won an award when he was just right out of high school. Anyway, the next year, he was arrested for vandalism. I called his family and said, "I have to use it. I am going to use the story." I don't think I have ever backed off. Right now, the County Assessor...there have been re-appraisals and everybody is after me, but I printed what she said. She said, "It was fairly done.." and everything else. Q: [question inaudible] A: No, but I know the term "only," the one word "only," can change it. If you ever put that in a story, that can change it big time. I try not to. I covered the murder of a young man northeast of Villisca. His family was absolutely raging at me because they felt he was unfairly killed. Well, anybody is unfairly killed. But, they had a different perspective on his life than I had because I had done some checking. I was very open. They didn't feel I was sympathetic enough, but I guess they have made their peace with me because they have brought me some things for the paper. But, no, I don't think so. I just don't think I have. Q: [question inaudible] A: Yes, I do. I will tell you what. If you are going to be a journalist, you have to have faith in yourself. And I think you sometimes have to have faith in God that you are doing the right thing. But I think, yes I do. I am a little nervous when I put things in that I know are going to upset people. But I would hope nobody would think I was terribly unfair. One of the things, "You take pictures of so-and-so's children all the time." Well, so-and-so's children are involved in things. If your children aren't involved...that type of thing. But I have gotten anonymous letters over the years. They are not always wise. One guy sent me one and the postman who picked it up knew it was addressed to me and he knew this fellow, so he had me open it while he was standing there to see what kind of a letter it was. Well, it wasn't terribly dangerous. Yes, I have been threatened, but I am not too worried. But then the guy wrote my husband about a class reunion two years later using the same typewriter. I thought, "Duh." I think if I went to sell the paper, I would have a lot of...I don't know whether I would do it. I am not sure I am always a wise business person, because I would want the paper to go to someone that cared about the community. And I have had two offers in the past year. One, I know would take care of it. But the one that paid me, I am not sure. -- <br><br> Section 7: Q: Being so involved in the community, do you ever have any worries about conflict of interest where you maybe you, yourself, or staff members might be serving on boards of directors? A: I don't care. It doesn't bother me if they are. I will tell you one thing that is happening right now. I am on the church governing board. Don't ever do that. I thought it was a no-brainer. We have a manse to sell and our church governing board went with...I have a woman that works with me, and her son wanted to buy the manse. The board, and I won't say how we all voted, but were divided. Her son did not get the manse. We voted to go the other way. She understood. We decided when we started that we would not talk about it in the office, and we didn't. I really don't care. Actually I don't mind. Some of my best friends have been people that, at first, I thought were complete idiots because they didn't agree with me. And then I found out, it is kind of interesting. Boy, it would be dull if everybody agreed with you. It would be very dull. I do ask them sometimes if they think what I am putting in is wise, and they are pretty honest with me. Pretty honest. Q: I am curious about your city council. [inaudible] You haven't mentioned your city council? A: People that run for public office, like people that buy newspapers, usually have an agenda. And you get on there and it is a problem. They are lengthy. Sometimes people don't understand the way things work. You can't just do anything you want to do. You have to abide by the city codes. So, I think that is it. And they learn. We have a mayor now, it has been about four months, and he is learning, I think. Because I think he was going to just do this and go after this person and that person. And they are nervous when we go to city council. The gal that writes for me has a wonderful sense of humor, too. Then, of course, there is the woman that tapes every council meeting and tells me what I have done wrong. I said, "Hey, you are listening to it." You will find that what people think they say is not what they say. In other words, when you play back something, "I didn't say that. That is not what I meant." That is not the point. They said it. You don't have time to second-guess it. But I never try to make anybody look foolish. I think you have the cat one, don't you? Where a councilman said, we have all these stray cats, "Just shoot them." The mayor said to him later, "Why did you...?" I said, "I used that. Of course, I used that. I let it go through." Well, why wouldn't they have figured out that is something you wouldn't say in a city council meeting with all these little cat-lovers in town. That is the type of thing. There have been people that have been upset about some of the people that have moved into our town and that is too bad. We are not going to be a little old, all-white city anymore. We have to realize that. But I notice there are no minorities in this class either. Are there any minorities in the journalism department? In its students? Good. Q: Along those lines, how do you try to incorporate the minorities into your coverage? A: I love the Cinco de Mayo, so I sometimes, which is the Fifth of May Celebration, and there is a Hispanic family there who actually has a son who is a major, major felon. But I like the family, so I usually deal with them. We don't have any prejudice in our family, I don't think. Sometimes we talk...but basically, we don't have any prejudices in our family. So, I think I can fit in with ease with people that think differently and look differently. I am just amazed. My son-in-law's father was Filipino, but Paul is 5'11", has a degree from an Ivy League school, and looks Hawaiian. So, it would be a little hard for me to be prejudiced against him. My grandson looks Chinese. Asian. So, I know how people look at us. I said to Chase, "You look differently in a small town. You have going to have to be aware of that." And he is. He is pretty good. So, people look differently, of course they are going to look at them. -- <br><br> Section 8: Q: Could you talk a little bit about the role of women in Iowa journalism. You were the first woman elected president of IoNAG [the Iowa Newspaper ??] Where do women fit in and why were you the first woman elected president? And why did it take so long? A: The second woman of the Interstate Newspaper Association (??). I think, mainly, I have no illusions. I was put on there, I think, because I am verbal. I don't feel uncomfortable around big city newspapers. And because I was not one that absolutely stood by small town journalism. I realize the bigger papers have the right to have some say in the newspaper association. When I bought the paper, it was the Iowa Press Association, I sent in for my credentials. They came back and the form to fill out said, "Publisher's name. Wife's name." I wrote back and I said, "I think you should change that." So they did. At the time I bought the paper, there were only two of us in the state that were sole women owners. That were not widows or sisters. I think there are plenty of women who could do it, but they were wives that were at home doing the bookkeeping, taking care of the children, to be perfectly frank. Now, Mary Louise Smith, whom you are going to interview with Kenny, she had quite a say in it. I think there are a lot of husband and wives - Frank and Sally Moreland (??) out of Osceola. I think they do it. But for some reason, women didn't do it. It never bothered me to be in a group of men because I grew up with that. With engineering and with some of my other activities, I am basically the only woman a lot of times. It was just not a big deal to me. I felt I could hold my own, and if I didn't, then they could teach me what I needed to know. It has been somewhat close. A woman who is firm and aggressive, they usually refer to frankly, as a bitch. But a man, they just think he is just a good businessman. I object to that. That type of thing. So, I think, that is part of it. If you are going to be a woman, you can't be too aggressive unfortunately. And you probably, maybe there is somewhere...I don't think journalism is bad. There is a glass ceiling, but sometimes it is not worth fighting it. The first candidate didn't get into the Citadel, the first woman. The second did. There are always those people that are going to break the ground. How many professors are in the School of Journalism? How many women? OK. You are coming up. But I think journalism is better. And there have been some women. But you look at these women, like Sally Quinn, and some of these others, they are thought of as pretty strong women. As I said, I just grew up in kind of unusual circumstances. We had...one of my family friends was an attorney. Women friends. We had other women who were very involved in banking. There were a lot of role models for all of us. My sister is at Iowa State and argues almost daily with Dr. ?? and keeps her job, which I think is phenomenal. But I think it is just that there are no sexual stereotypings in my family. In fact, when my father was between hunting dogs, I got to go and be the road hunter and go down in the ditches. He just treated me as one of the dogs. But there was none of this sexual stereotyping. And I think you have to have that. Now, unfortunately, it creates, for my daughters, some real problems because they come out at twenty-on loaded. Well, my younger daughter, I knew she was going to get in trouble, so she went to college when she was sixteen. And she was ready for it. But they come out at sixteen to twenty with a four-year degree and think they should get all the courtesies that are extended to men at that age. And that is not going to happen. It really is unfortunate. Q: Have you encountered any specific problems as a women in Villisca with men? Or do men not treat you the way they would treat a publisher if he were a man? Can you give us some examples? A: I think that is true. I think there is one businessman in town that is trying to keep me out of the loop of the things that are going on in their planning at the chamber [Chamber of Commerce]. I realize that and I am going to let it go because other people go to me. I don't feel that strongly about standing up for it. But I do know that sometimes, and IBM was great at calling the newspaper and asking for the publisher and when I would get on, they would say, "No. May I speak to your husband?" They have done that once they have stopped requiring white shirts. But there are these problems when they don't believe a woman can be a businessman and a woman with a sense of humor and a grandmother, you know. That type of thing. I hate to see it, but I think it still is there. I have a daughter in architecture and that is male-dominated from the word, "go." And her name is Leslie, which I should never have named her. She has terrible problems because they think she is a man. She is 4'11. My daughter Ann, who is Attila the Hun's daughter, is not going to let any of that bother her. We just grew up, there was no problem. And it is a disservice sometimes, I think. If a man doesn't want to work with me, you can't force somebody to work with you that doesn't. You have to show him that you are good. Sometimes, women have to be better. They just have to be better at what they do. It is unfortunate, but it is part of the system. But I would like to see a man have a baby [laughs]. It is uncomfortable to go into... I was at a meeting recently. The newspaper association. I was the only woman there. But I wasn't uncomfortable. I knew these people. These are old-time gentlemen. The younger ones have a little respect for someone of that age. So, I don't see a problem. And I hope young men will treat...if you go for an interview, just don't assume the publisher is a man either. That is a big mistake. I think that sometimes happens. It sounds grand, but I say publisher/janitor. Depending upon the day. Q: How are you treated by other publishers and editors? A: Great. Great. Not a problem. When I was president of the board, we had a lot of board meetings. My husband doesn't even look at the paper, which is fine with me. He has his own job and interests. So, he didn't go with me, because he wasn't interested, but that didn't bother me. Granted, I wouldn't be invited if there were three couples going out for dinner, I might not go with them. But it didn't bother me. There has never been a problem. When you get into community journalism, you are usually pretty fine folk. You understand the world and are pretty forgiving and pretty understanding and lots of things. -- <br><br> Section 9: Q: What do you see for the future of your paper? A: That is tough. I probably should sell it, but it is the one voice out there. You have Internet. You have email and they are talking about that. But that is not going to have the picture of your daughter when she gets married. That won't have the picture when your brother gets married. It won't have the obituaries. And we are very free on our obituaries up to a point. I think that's... A: So, I said, just give them each a subscription. I am not going to fight for another year. I just couldn't believe that. But there is pass-along value to it and, to them, by the time anybody in my two communities, I will have their picture in the paper or their name in the paper at least once. Maybe for an arrest. But I try to do that. I think that gives a validation to who they are. When they see that so-and-so got a "One" at state in piano, they will say something to the parents. And that is a stroke that you don't get if you live in Cedar Rapids, although the Cedar Rapids Gazette is a fantastic paper. And they do a lot of special stories. But I think this is it. So, I think there is a reason. I think it is one voice and it is one voice that can petition for the state to look at us and to realize that we...how many of you have heard the Golden Circle around Des Moines which includes Iowa City? It is not a Golden Circle, it is a Golden Moat. And those people in Des Moines can't get across the bridge. So, we do feel we are deprived. Actually, I got rub. I wrote when the 4-H decided they would go to "no ribbons" at the state fair, I thought that was silly. Because they were afraid it would hurt the kids' feelings. Hey, that's life. You are judged. They rescinded that, not because of what I wrote. But I think other people felt that way. And if you feel the property assessments...I try to give people a venue for their expressions without trying to hang the county assessor. They want their questions answered. They want to know why the school taxes are going up. They want to know why you are letting a teacher go, and you can tell them up to a point. And you can settle a lot of rumors on whether something has been sold (??) and that type of thing. Q: With all the traditions you have created for your newspaper, how would you like to see that passed on? A: Anybody that has a journalism background is going to do it differently than I do. I realize that. I just hope they care about the community. I hope they realize...it is the one business in town that people feel they also own. You are not going to tell the grocer that you wish he would arrange his radishes a different way. You are not going into the hardware store and say, "Why don't you put these nuts here and those bolts up there?" But they feel they own it and they are more than willing to help you right your wrongs in there. I just want someone who will care about it and not use it as a money-maker. And, if they do, ours is a community that will reject them. I try, I really try my best. And when it comes off the press, I just, "Ooooh, dear God." I don't even want to look at it because I probably can see any error we make. I have three rules in my office. You can't chew gum. You have to replace the toilet paper on the roll. And you can't pick up the paper after it comes off the press roll and go, "Uh oh!" Because that just cringes you. And they will say, finally, two days later, "I hate to tell you Carolyn, but..." And it bothers me. That really does bother me, when I do something like that.