James Cooney interview about journalism career, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1999

Section 1: Q: The address... A: My home address is 3913 Fagen Drive, Des Moines, Iowa 50310. Q: I hate to have you do all the dirty work, but the date today is... A: The date today is September 25, 1999. Q: Jim, we're talking about your experiences at the Tribune. I know you were at KRNT before you were hired at the Tribune. Your wife, Patricia, worked at the Tribune on the copy desk before you were hired. A: That's correct. Q: How was it that you ended up going from KRNT to the Des Moines Tribune and what was your wife's role in that transition? A: Actually, I was in the Navy in World War II for three and a half years. When the war was over August 15th of '45, I was out in the Philippines. I had had leave in Des Moines a couple of times. I'll tell you the background of Pat a little bit. I went into the Navy after I graduated from Drake in 1942, and Pat was a student. She was two years behind me, she would have been a junior the year I left. According to her, school wasn't quite as interesting then. But in any event, she had worked part time in the society department for the Des Moines Register a couple of summers, so she decided that maybe she could get a job down there full-time. After her junior fall semester at Drake, she applied and got a job on the copy desk of the Des Moines Tribune. She was actually working there when I came home on leave early in '44. I had been up in Alaska during all of '43. I met some of her friends and co-workers. I had known a few before, but not very many. In other words, the connection was kind of established there. Among other people that Pat met was Jerry Bogan, who was bureau manager for United Press in Des Moines. She told Jerry a little bit about me and he said, "Have him send me a letter. I might be able to use him after the war." I knew I would be coming home eventually. So actually, there was not only a connection for the Tribune job but really a connection for me on my first job when I got back to Des Moines. Jerry did hire me and I worked for a year for United Press. In the meantime, I had contacted Tribune people that Pat knew. Parker "Bud" Mize, who was news editor of the Tribune, had indicated to me that they might be able to use me sometime, but that he was committed to having places for anyone who came back from World War II that had been working for them. As you probably know by this time, the law required that their jobs had to be held open for any returning service men. Bud wasn't sure who all was coming back. There was a timeframe involved in there, too. But in any event, I had that, not a promise necessarily, but a chance for a job there through Pat's connections. That was the connection. What happened was, in the interim, I worked at UP, United Press, and back in those days, there were a bunch of us young punks running around. It was Chuck McCuen, Jim Zabel of WHO, and we just ran around together socially. A guy named Chuck Miller, who was program director at KRNT, thought I sounded pretty good. I guess maybe McCuen told him. I had no radio experience at all. But I was working for UPI and it was in the spring of '47 and they offered me a job. I think they offered me five dollars more per week than I was making for the United Press, and good God, that was a lot more money in those days. I remember Bogan wasn't very happy, because at the time, for UPI, I was covering the Iowa House and they were right in the middle of the legislature, but it was an either/or thing at KRNT. It was again, a job reporting basically. They had never had a leg man or a reporter, anybody go out and cover news. Russ VanDyke was there then. He had started a couple years earlier, during the war. He had come over from Nebraska. They were what were called in those days "readers." I don't mean that Russ necessarily was a reader, but in his job at KRNT he basically stayed in the newsroom and read reports off the wire and any place else he could get them. Anyway, Chuck Miller offered me this job doing a few weekend radio newscasts, so I took it. Q: How did you like it? A: I liked it a lot, but one thing about working for a radio station, I think, as far as writing was concerned, was to learn how to write things concisely and not have a lot of fluff. From that standpoint, I always felt it was a year well spent. What happened was that I did this for a year and had a lot of fun doing it. A couple of things happened simultaneously, as I understand it; nobody ever told me. The sales department didn't think I was doing such a terrific job on the air. They weren't going to fire me or anything, but I suppose I was trying to imitate Walter Winchell or somebody at that time. But at the same time, sure enough, Mize said that there was an opening at the Tribune copy desk. I should say, by this time Pat had retired to raise our family. We're talking '48 now and Mary Kate, our oldest child, was born in '47. Actually, Pat worked up until the spring or summer of '47. She retired and they gave her a nice fruit bowl that had "Pat, Copy Editor Emeritus" and all this stuff. It was a good bunch to work with. She had a great time there. We can get into that later if you want, but I guess you asked me the connection. I'm sorry to go on so long. But in any event, that's when I went to work technically for the Tribune. I got credit for that year at KRNT because the station was a division of Cowles. So technically, I worked for them for about 39 years. But that's how I happened to end up in the newsroom. Q: Had you had it in mind that you wanted to eventually work for the Register and Tribune company or were you just getting the news experience that you thought you needed? A: At that point, I wasn't one to map out a career and plan to go to the big city. You always looked at bigger markets, I suppose. Frankly, I was born and reared in a suburb of Chicago. Of course, this was just developing at that time. I kind of liked Des Moines just from what little experience I had at Drake. I realize that as a Drake student, you're not really a hundred percent citizen of the city of Des Moines, but I just kind of liked the life. I think I personally was not the guy to take a lot of chances. When I got this job at the Tribune, I was doing what I loved to do. I always wanted to be a newspaperman, even as a kid in high school back in Chicago. Here I was. I enjoyed my work. I never had great plans to move onto bigger markets. Q: But you had at been at Drake, though, and you had seen the paper. A: Oh yes, it was my paper. That was the one thing I always had at Drake was a copy of the Register and the Tribune, even if I didn't have a damn dime. I always subscribed to the paper from the day I got here. I was familiar with it. And some of my colleagues were lucky enough to work for them. Maury White was a dear personal friend who we just lost here last April. He and I studied at Drake together. Of course, he worked part time for them while was in school. Bob Spiegel was another one. Bob is a fellow I'll tell you about. You ought to get to him. And there were several others. So I was somewhat familiar with the paper. Although the only thing I wrote when I was at Drake were "sermon" stories. A fellow named Bob Root, a Tribune reporter, taught an advanced reporting class at Drake and I remember he used to send us out to cover sermons. Once in a while, the church page would pick up a story from someone. I don't think I got a byline, but I think they took a couple of my stories. -- <br><br> Section 2: Q: What was your perception of the Register and Tribune? Of course it was well regarded by journalists and readers worldwide. Did you have the same feelings? A: I was kind of aware of their promotion, if you will. But at this point in my life, I wasn't that familiar with all the other publications to compare. I was convinced that the Register, and its sister paper, the Tribune, were great newspapers. The Register, you might say, had the better reputation because of its statewide coverage and circulation and its expertise in the field of agriculture. There was no doubt about that. It was the premier paper in the country. I was aware of that, yes. It's interesting, and we'll get back to this later, I also became aware early in life of the Christian Science Monitor. Q: Which of course later became a big part of your life. Just some details, who was it that hired you? A: Like I say, I believe technically, it would have been [Frank] Eyerly. He was managing editor. I don't know whether any of the other fellows you've talked with from the R and T brought this out, but the man who ran the Tribune (and Frank, as far as I know) was a pretty much hands-off to, was Parker Mize. Parker was the news editor of the Tribune and he was the guy who told me he might have a spot for me and, I think, put in the word to Frank that he wanted to hire me as a copy editor on the Tribune. I suppose technically, Eyerly OK'd it, but Parker Mize was my contact. Parker, in turn, was Pat's boss and Pat had made quite a little impression on him in her two or three years there on the desk. Q: At the time you were being hired, did you have any relations with Frank Eyerly? Did you meet with him or talk with him? A: Frank knew what I did. While I was working for UPI, there was a fire at the LeSalle Hotel in Dubuque, a fatal fire. Bogan sent me over to cover it. Eyerly was impressed with the work I had done there. He called me into the Register and offered me a job at that time. I told you that I was working for the UPI and I was getting an awful lot of experience there. I was doing everything from covering sports to the state house. Also, I wasn't that enamored with night work. I knew that there was a possibility sometime in the next year or two I might be able to get on the Tribune, the afternoon paper. Early on with all those considerations, I turned the job down. That was my first introduction to Frank and as far as I recall, we got along fine. We had a good interview and things like that, but I did at that time decline the offer. Frank and I knew each other early on. Q: So your job at the Tribune was afternoon hours. A: Well, yes, and the fact that Pat had worked there and I was very impressed with Parker Mize, too. He was one hell of a newspaperman. Q: Tell us a little bit about him, what made him such a great newspaperman? A: Well, I wish I knew and I could instill it in everybody. Parker was born in Alabama but he went to the University of Missouri and if I remember right, he came to the Tribune in the early thirties, '32 or '33. He was always an editor. He just had such great news perception and great make-up qualities too, which the news editor in addition to selecting news, in those days made up the front page and some of the inside pages. He was a very intelligent man and a very accurate man and demanded the same from his people. He had a great sense of humor and, at the same time, if you got in trouble, you knew it. Parker was the man on the Tribune. If I can digress a little bit, a funny thing about Pat was when she was hired she went in and I think Ken MacDonald hired her. I think that was her contact when she decided to work full time. He asked her what she wanted to do, copy edit or report. She said, "I think I would like to copy edit." She had done a little bit of writing for the society department, club notes and things. He said, "I guess we can do that." She had heard about Mize, how he was a tough boss but fair. She was scared to death of him. The first day she went to work, at that time the old copy desk was run by the "slot man." The "slot man" then, who had the title of telegraph editor, was Ogden Dwight. She was introduced to Ogden before she started to work and she thought she could get along with him fine. The first day she walked into the newsroom, we're talking seven o'clock in the morning, she was twenty years old and she walks into the newsroom and who's sitting at the slot but Parker Mize. Ogden Dwight was sick. She turned around and walked out. She was really intimidated. She finally walked back in and, to make a long story short, they hit it off like peas in a pod. She could write headlines and she was a good editor. Q: Parker Mize was a tough editor, but of course everybody says Frank Eyerly had a tough reputation. Everybody I've talked to said Frank was a great newsman but on the other hand, there were times when he had some encounters with his employees. A: I'm sure that on occasion he may have seen something in the Tribune that he didn't like and Mize got called in. I think Mize was more hands-on than Frank ever was. Frank was always managing editor when I was there and was technically in his office. Mize was out in the newsroom with us and worked right there along with us and put that Tribune together three or four times a day. Actually we had four editions. From that standpoint, I think Parker was, to me, the better newsman. He had to make snap decisions. Frank, as I'm sure you've been told, had that Register brought out to his house every night. Of course, Frank had more responsibilities technically with both the Register and the Tribune, but I think he concentrated more on the Register because he had confidence in Mize and knew he could run this paper. The two men were different, even physically. Mize was a short man, a little on the stocky side. Frank was a little taller and had gray hair. I never worked directly under Frank. What I mean is Frank never came out and took Bud's job, so as far as I was concerned, Bud was my man. I never saw Bud lose his temper. Well, I shouldn't say that. But he didn't have to, I suppose, do what Frank did once in a while, call somebody in and fire them on the spot or something like that. He didn't necessarily have all those administrative duties that Frank had. I guess just hands-on is the key word for Bud. -- <br><br> Section 3: Q: Now you were on the copy desk from the time that you were hired for five years, when you became a reporter. All that time spent on the copy desk, that's what you were doing? A: Well, basically yes. If you're familiar at all with the ways the old copy desk used to work. I can't honestly say what they do now with all the computers and things, but every piece of copy on the Tribune came through the copy desk. That was wire copy, locally written copy, and we were responsible for editing it. By that, I mean catching any errors or anything else and dressing it up a little. Back in the old days, you don't see it anymore, but we used bold face type, added subheads and, of course, wrote the headlines. They were determined by where it was going to go in the paper and the display it was going to get. We worked all kinds of copy. Of course, as a newcomer to the company you would be handed short stuff, but eventually you would work your way up to where you were handling major stories. No one was ever categorized. I say that with reservations because I know during the war that certain copy editors became experts in different theaters, something like that. I suppose that we might have had a preference for certain stories if we knew a little more about a particular situation. But basically, everyone on the desk was eventually thought to be able to handle any given situation. The slot man determined everything. He passed out everything to the individual who copied it and it came back to him and he checked him. He, in effect, literally sent them down to the printer. When I say "down," there was a tube in the Tribune that went down to the composing room on a lower floor. The copy cutter took over down there and away it went to a linotype operator. Q: Did you get calls in from the various bureaus or correspondence with people giving you stories out in the field? A: Not on the copy desk. The copy desk was strictly a funnel for news that had been collected from different sources. Our wire copy in those days came from United Press and Associated Press. And they used to have the old Chicago Daily News foreign service. Those were the three main ones, and then there were others, too. There was some mailed in stuff that occasionally we handled. The state desk would send us copy from state correspondents. If someone working in Iowa City had a story, he or she would deal with the state desk. Eventually, if it was a major story, they might switch the correspondent over to a reporter in the newsroom. But generally speaking, the correspondent would send stories to the state desk. The local reporters would be doing the same thing to the city desk, covering their beats or special assignments that they were sent on. That copy in turn would be handled by city editors first. When they were satisfied with it, or at least the first version of it, they would send it on to us at the copy desk and we would follow through with it. Q: Was there ever a time when you were working as a reporter while you were on the copy desk? A: Actually, a couple of times I did fill in when somebody would go on vacation or something. Not too often, but once in a while. Q: What kinds of stories were those? A: Well, I remember the first story I ever wrote as a reporter was a feature on the Irish settlement down in Cumming, Iowa. That's the little community south of here where the pope visited. It might have been in the early fifties. I also remember the commercial beat, which was walking Walnut Street in those days and checking in with the storeowners. On the copy desk, I used to fill in occasionally for the slot man. There was a pecking order. The regular slot man, of course, was the telegraph editor, and he worked five days a week. Then on Saturday, somebody else would handle the slot. (We published six days a week on the Tribune.) I used to sit in every once in a while. Then, we also had a Tribune predate and I used to be predate editor on weekends. I used to come in on Sunday afternoons and put that paper together from what you had left over from Saturday and from the Sunday Register. Of course, you were always watching the wires and things for late news that you would include. The full-time predate editor at the time I was on the desk was a fellow named Russ Schoch. Q: I've heard about this from Bob Asbille. A: OK. Bob Asbille, that was interesting. When I left KRNT as a newsman, Shotty [Walter Shotwell] came in. Then when Shotty left, Asbille came in as Bob Allen. Did he tell you about that? Somebody didn't like Asbille, so he was Bob Allen. Q: He told me about that. A: The three of us all worked for KRNT. I didn't mean to digress. We were talking about Russ Schoch. Schoch was a character, too. He went on eventually to Columbia at the press institute there. He served as coordinator for the schools and workshops they put on. -- <br><br> Section 4: Q: I don't mind you digressing. I'm looking for stories about personalities of people that you worked with, some of the anecdotes that you remember. George Mills talked about George Yates who was a character in and of himself. Were there other people like that you can think of? A: Yates was a character. Among other things I did when I was on the Tribune, even when I was copy editing before I was reporting, was working Saturdays during the football season on the Big Peach, the Register's famous sports section. I have to tell you, I did work for the Register. I had a little football background at Drake. I was a quarterback back in the days when they went both ways. I was third string but I used to play a little. With the football knowledge, they plucked me out to help on the Big Peach. The Register used to fly photo crews all over the country. The photo crews usually consisted of one or two photographers and a spotter for each photographer. I worked as a spotter on the Big Peach for, I imagine, four or five football seasons. I worked with Yates, [Don] Ultang and John Robinson. We worked with different photographers probably different games. The farthest I ever went was over to Notre Dame to cover a game. We left after twenty minutes of the game so we could get our pictures back to put in the paper for Sunday. It looked real good. Once in a while, you would get an opening good kickoff return or something that looked real good. Q: There was a Pulitzer Prize winning photo? A: Right, and unfortunately for me that week Bob Speigel, who I mentioned earlier, was the spotter on that trip and they went down to Stillwater. I think I went to Iowa City that week. There were four or five of us spotters. Bob went to Iowa most of the time and I went to Iowa State most of the time, but they used to switch us just so we would get a chance to see the other teams play. I think I went to Iowa State that weekend. I'll always remember Bob coming in that afternoon. We knew by that time what had happened (an Oklahoma A&M player had slugged Drake star Johnny Bright and broken his jaw). At the time, those guys didn't even know exactly what happened. They knew they had a picture and that Johnny went down and then came back in the game. By the time they got back to the newsroom in Des Moines, I remember Spiegel saying they got a shot of Bright's jaw being broken. John [Robinson] and Don [Ultang]were in the lab developing their stuff and there it was. They had it. I always remember that afternoon. It was a late Saturday afternoon and we were all coming back in. Anyway, about Yates, what a character he was. Did they tell you the story about Yates and how they were consecrating a new bishop at St. Ambrose? I don't know who was up on the lectern, but he actually got up and asked whoever was in there to move so he could take some pictures. Q: Yates went up and asked who to move? A: Whoever was in the lectern at the time. He wasn't giving a homily or anything, but he might have been announcing. I don't know. I heard that story but I didn't see it. That was one of the legends. He was a character, he really was. Of course, he had quite a following and the old British accent and the mustache. I think one of the first assignments I had was with George up at Iowa State. I remember lugging the camera along. The camera wasn't light. He walked along and we got to the base of the stadium and George says, "I'll meet you up on top." He went swaggering up to the top. George was something else. Q: Also, it's amazing that the Register and Tribune company had a lot in their budget to get some of these people out there. A: I don't think they have that money anymore. As a matter of fact, I hear reports of cutbacks. Of course, we always have that . We used to get that a little bit on the city desk when I was the city editor. I had to cut back on the expense accounts, I guess that perennial. They spent an awful lot of money, but The Big Peach had a great reputation. It really did. Coaches all over the country subscribed to that paper just to get the pictures. I'm talking whether they were playing or not, just to keep track. That was back in the glory days of the Register and the Tribune really. The Register was well over five hundred thousand a week in circulation. The Tribune when I was on the copy desk and early on, was well over a hundred and fifty thousand. In a city of two hundred thousand, that wasn't too bad. Of course it eventually started dying with the advent of TV and who knows what. People don't read as much anymore. Q: Maybe we can get into that a little bit more later. A: Sure, go ahead. -- <br><br> Section 5: Q: I have some questions about what happened with the Register. You got into reporting, what were some of the challenges that you faced as a reporter? A: I guess basically your professional pride in trying to get things right and accurate all the time. You learned a little about business. I actually was a commercial beat reporter and also covered Federal Court. You kind of learned the hard way. People are better trained now before they go out. I didn't know a lot about law or court procedures, but you soon learned through quiet observation and self-education. I was never, I suppose, considered a great writer, but again that radio experience helped me a little bit to keep it short. I remember one piece I did for the Tribune over some budget piece or tax reform piece. It went on, of course it was one of those things where they wanted it in great detail and that's what they got. I was never really proud of that story. It ran about eight columns before we got through with the thing. Q: But you covered the bases. A: The Federal Court was a good experience for me. As a general assignment reporter, too, you got sent to the police station and the Polk County courthouse just to fill in occasionally. I was exposed to all of that and that was good, basic experience that you couldn't get anywhere else. You couldn't teach it in a classroom. That's basically what my title was, general assignment, although I did cover these beats. Until '53 and then I was called into take over at the statehouse. There was an old-timer named Fred Lazell. Good old Fred was a nervous Nelly and George Mills was always over his shoulder at the Register. It got to a point where Fred just couldn't handle it, so for his own health, they decided they had better pull him off. They put him in the office and sent me over to the statehouse. I was working with a great guy by the name of Cliff Millen. Cliff was the Tribune political writer. I covered the statehouse and Cliff was back and forth. Then for two sessions of the legislature I covered the house and Cliff covered the senate. Of course, that was a whole new world for me. You're aware of what's going on and everything, but to actually be there was a great experience and I really enjoyed that a lot. Q: Any memorable stories that stand out? A: I wish I could say that I wrote a lot of prize-winning stories. The thing I remember about covering the statehouse, I guess more than anything else, were the deadlines. People that work for the Register, for example, never realized what we were up against on the Tribune. The Supreme Court would be handing down decisions at ten o'clock in the morning and we had a first edition at ten thirty. We would have to get something to the newsroom in a hurry. Reporting for an afternoon newspaper, it was always speed and, hopefully, accuracy. I can't recall any great stories. I remember I used to cover that statehouse from top to bottom everyday. There must have been ten or twelve offices everyday I went into just to make sure everything was either quiet, or if something happened, to write a story. There were a lot of handouts and things too. I remember Cliff and I during the legislature, would meet about a quarter of twelve and head for the office. We did do some dictating, particularly during the legislative session. But a lot of time, we went in and wrote. We got into the office about noon and wrote for the city edition. -- <br><br> Section 6: Q: You also talked a little bit about the competition... A: I just made reference to George Mills. George was one hell of a reporter. Everything in those days was released for PMs. The stories often would not be given out until morning. Once in a while, you would get one in the mail. I always remember (this is for George's sake and not mine), the Centennial coin was coming out and all the descriptions and everything were going to be released the next day. But it was in the Register that morning. George, to this day, swore to God he never saw the release and would not name his source. Actually, we had had it in our hands for twelve or fourteen hours before, but George got the story. That's the kind of thing that he would not let the PMs have. He scooped the state on that one. Q: Were there hard feelings about that? A: Hell no, George and I were friends. Although he got stuff sometimes that I would be a little surprised to read in the morning. Hopefully I got a few things once in a while that he didn't know about. There were no Pulitzer Prizes or even state association awards. I guess I was a pedestrian reporter and tried to do my job as best as I could. Q: Any positive or negative feedback that you remember from readers one way or another? A: Actually, I can say that I don't remember any. My picture used to appear in ads when I covered the legislature. Really, I don't remember. You're talking fifty-five years ago, now. I don't remember ever being called on the carpet by the editors for something I had done, so I suppose no. No reprimands means you're doing the job to somebody's satisfaction anyway. Q: Back to the competitive nature of things. Do you know the name Marv Hastings? He remembered one time where there was an incident where either a Register or a Tribune person was able to read the ribbon of one of the competitor's typewriters. A: I think that's a story that went around the newsroom and I think he's expanding it a little bit. You're getting into electronic typewriters and that might be what he's talking about. I know that we guarded our carbon copies. Back in the days when I was in the newsroom, when I left in '72 we did have the IBM typewriters, but that was about it, and that's what he's talking about tape. I do remember stories around that the Register used to snoop around the Tribune for advance stories we'd written. If our people saw a wayward Register carbon they might take a good look. It was great competition. We wouldn't give them a damn thing and vice versa. There was no love lost between the staffs professionally. Socially, most of us got along. There might have been a fistfight or two, but I never heard about it. We guarded our stuff. There was a real pride in it. Particularly working on afternoon stories to have it show up the next afternoon and the Register missed it. I think Marvin may have heard the story wrong, although I suppose it could be possible to get one of those tapes. I'm sure that some of the carbon papers got waylaid once in a while. The other thing we used to do.... Tape One, Side Two Q: You were very protective about AP... A: Giving our carbons too soon. This was true even when I was in the newsroom. Although it was beginning to have an impact, radio news wasn't offered every hour or every half hour like it is now. You had your morning newscast, you had your noon newscast and you had your evening newscast. If we had stories completed early in the morning, for example, and AP got those carbons, once in a while they would get it out in the radio newswire and the stations would have them on the noon news. If we had a complete scoop on them and had it all to ourselves, we would kind of delay putting those carbons in the AP basket as late as we could. The same thing out in the state. A lot of times we didn't want every afternoon daily in the state to have the same stories we had in the Tribune. Q: How would AP get a hold of your carbons? A: As a member of Associated Press we were obligated to share our news. That's what Associated Press implied. It is an association of news gatherers. We had to furnish them with carbon copies in those days. We used to make a carbon copy for Associated Press. You literally put them in your typewriter. We would hold those carbons at least until after our editions were out because most of the PMs in the state didn't go out any later than we did. A lot of times in our city edition stuff, they never saw it until 2:30 or 3:00 in the afternoon, which was all right. We put it on the wire at night. I am sure the Associated Press boys knew this, the old-timers. They used to scream and holler every once in a while, "You have that, we didn't get it." Well, we must have lost the carbon somewhere. [laughs] Q: Maybe I'm naove, but I can't imagine that kind of a competition going on within an individual company. It was Cowles Communications, the Des Moines Register and Tribune, but you say that competition was there? A: No, you're not naove at all. It went on, believe me. We didn't share any of our stuff with them. I say that, and yet for example the early editions of the Des Moines Tribune picked up type or stories from the Register. Conversely, the early editions of the Register would pick up type from the city editions of the Tribune. So you see we shared stories in that regard. Unless Eyerly sent out the word, and it's remotely possible that one of our people had to write a story for the Register. The only exception would be if a Tribune reporter or a Register reporter might be covering a spot situation, a bad accident or tornado or something like that; they might file a report for the other paper. But I'm talking about local beat coverage. There was some sharing of personnel in that respect. It didn't happen very often, but once in a while, for the sake of the company. Any enterprising stuff, you would keep it to yourself. Q: Do you think that was a good thing? A: I do. It was great. We always look back on it with pride that we were able to do it. -- <br><br> Section 7: Q: Was there ever any union activism or were you ever encouraged to join the guild? A: There was. Actually, before I came to the Tribune, it was right after the war in '47, Pat was still working, there was a big union move. It's funny, the fellow that came in to organize the guild in the R&T was named Lee Simon. Lee had a job as a copy editor on the Tribune. I only met him, I wasn't in the office, but Pat was at the time. I remember they had a guild election and they were defeated. We later hired a reporter from Wichita who was in a guild shop there, but he never tried to organize. To the best of my knowledge, he told some of the people about working in a guild shop, but Simons was the one and only attempt to organize, and it got voted down. Q: Were there grievances? A: As I recall, and I think it's because the R&T was such a good company, there really weren't many grievances. They used to talk about the fact that nobody knew what anybody else was being paid. And they didn't. It was never told. That was one thing that you worked with your superiors on. They told you if you were going to get a raise. Frank Eyerly was probably the one that determined that most of them. That was one of the big things. Everything was so secret. You didn't even know what the guy next to you was making unless he told you. That was one of the big arguments. But again, I was not in the newsroom at the time. I'm sure they felt that we weren't getting paid enough either, but then again, nobody knew who was making what anyway. I'm sure they had an idea of what our salary criteria was. That's the only time I ever remember any concentrated effort to unionize the shop. Q: I meant to ask you earlier on, when you were hired was the pay fair? How much were you getting? A: Nobody was getting a heck of a lot. I think I went to work for the Tribune as a copy editor for $60 or $65 a week. At the time I felt it was fair. Of course, you would always want more. Again, I didn't have a lot to compare it with. I'm sure the guild came in and talked bigger money before I got there. I am sure they did. Q: Benefits to go with that? A: Yeah, we had health insurance. Back in those days there weren't all these perks you have now. When I started with the Tribune, we contributed to a pension plan. Later on, the company switched over to a 100% company contribution pension plan. I still collect a few bucks from that old pension plan that I contributed to. Literally, it was so old that when I retired, nobody in the business office knew about it. I asked, they checked and, sure enough, I was eligible for a few bucks a month. A few other old-timers got it when they retired. That was probably early fifties at the most and then it was over. I'm trying to think what the health insurance situation was in those days. I was aware of it, having six kids and everything. We had health insurance. I remember one time, and this was later, complaining about a $25 deductible. The point was that most of the time my kids were breaking their arms etc. I would take them to the doctor and it would be $25, and I had to pay. I don't whether we got that resolved right away, but eventually it was changed. That's the only thing I can remember complaining about health issues. Q: Back to your time on the commercial beat. I'm guessing that was the business beat. A: Yeah, business. In those days business was downtown Des Moines, there were no malls or anything. Eventually, one of the last stories I did as a reporter was the sale of the Passionist Monastery at Merle Hay and Douglas that became the site of Merle Hay Mall. I think Spiegel did the commercial aspect of the mall coming in. I did the story on the Passionists selling and going out. Basically, business beat was just meeting with the merchants downtown, with the Des Moines realtors over luncheons. That's basically what it was. There were occasionally store expansions and mergers. Q: What kind of stories came out of that? Was it just mergers and things like that? A: Yes. Q: I can't imagine there being big stories, like some of the big mergers you're seeing now. A: Oh no, nothing like that, Brian. It was probably store openings and things like that. I don't remember anything dramatic. Once in a while you would pick up something out of a realtors meeting about somebody coming into build a new store or shop or something like that.